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  1. #46
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingstonCubber View Post
    So why pick on one bit that is flexible?!?

    The idea that the NAP holder doesn't have to be on-site 24 hours a day seems to be a strange thing to argue against if we're attempting to improve the system.
    The NAP holder doesnt have to be present the whole time. If they did it could cause some interesting issues:

    What about if all the YP go off site for an activity - must the NAP holder remain at the campsite? Are they allowed out with one of the groups of YP?
    What if half the YP are off site on an activity? Can they go with them?
    What if they're the only driver and need to do the shopping? Or go to hospital?

    I am the NAP holder for our Cub Summer Camp. I am then the NAP holder for Scout Summer Camp a few days later. Realistically our CSL Is the leader in charge on Cub Summer Camp under my supervision. Scout summer camp is being organised as a joint effort between 3 of us but I am nominally the leader in charge.

    For Cub Summer Camp, during the days, I will be leaving the cub leader in charge of camp and going off to do the shopping - and probably to sit in Costa and do some work for an hour or two. I will of course know what they are getting up to (e.g. I've been involved in writing the programme) and will be contactable in an emergency.

    It is not unfeasible, particularly for longer camps, that a camp might have to be attended by different NAP holders for different parts of camp. E.g. if none of the cub leaders have a permit, it might be for a cub summer camp that the SL does a couple of nights and an ASL with a permit does the rest of camp as both fit around work.
    Dan Spencer

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  2. #47
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingstonCubber View Post
    So why pick on one bit that is flexible?!?
    i'm not! i'm picking on all of it!

    The idea that the NAP holder doesn't have to be on-site 24 hours a day seems to be a strange thing to argue against if we're attempting to improve the system.
    it's the logicality that mang21 was talking about.

    what you are saying is that a NAP is one with effectively lead and supervise qualities. but if they are competent to supervise as you suggest:

    why does that supervision not extend through the 24h? (correction to your quote above: they do have to be on site for some of the 24h!)

    why do you not need them during the day to supervise if in a similar situation but not staying overnight they would not be needed?

    and if they are qualified to supervise then why are they not NAAs? As someone else has said it's not a progressive skills and competency system so the NAA does not have to be any more 'qualified'.

    I should say that no system is perfect and i'm not entirely unhappy with the scheme and its aims; however, it's a bit clunky; doesn't seem to work in places; allows for hurdles and hoops to be applied too easily; it's not supported enough; and, has people managing it applying double and triple standards!

    a NAP is not a scouting A-level!

    but here's the rub: why are so few leaders 'qualified' to lead a NA activity, about 25% by my reckoning - and that's any form of NA activity, even indoor (which used to be called level 1) - yet when we look elsewhere (MattR) there are 100% of leaders eligible to lead what many would consider a fundamental programme element of scouting?

    or do people consider 25% sufficient?

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 17-07-2017 at 02:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    and without a NAP that also rules them out staying a night a claridge's hotel with their troop let alone auchtermuchty bunkhouse!

    the nights away scheme covers residential experiences not just camping.

    and someone in a section has to go on a residential at least or get someone else to do it for them.

    TM
    What I meant was, they don't want to do overnighters at all. Its more time spent away from home/families/etc. I think it ties in a wee bit with how we get leaders these days. So often they've already had their arm twisted to step into the role (either by the group telling them the section will close if they don't or existing leaders cajoling them into putting their hands up.) Either way, they're already being put upon - they're not joining purely and only because it seems interesting or they want to. As you know, organising section meetings week in week out is already quite onerous if you don't have a system in place, doing overnighters is off the cards for many.

    Perhaps having those weekend training camps sets a tone that has since been lost.

    Our current batch of Scouts (12 and up), I don't think ever went camping indoors or out as cubs - and it shows, because they're not interested now. The most recent batch (10 and up), did one night away (indoors) with the new CSL's and seem a lot more up for it.

    The previous CSL's are a good example as it happens. They didn't have a NAP between them because they didn't have time to organise nights away. It didn't have anything to do with the NA system itself. (Although I dare say they looked at it and maybe thought it was onerous - even if it isn't particularly.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    i'm not! i'm picking on all of it!



    it's the logicality that mang21 was talking about.

    what you are saying is that a NAP is one with effectively lead and supervise qualities. but if they are competent to supervise as you suggest:

    why does that supervision not extend through the 24h? (correction to your quote above: they do have to be on site for some of the 24h!)

    why do you not need them during the day to supervise if in a similar situation but not staying overnight they would not be needed?

    and if they are qualified to supervise then why are they not NAAs? As someone else has said it's not a progressive skills and competency system so the NAA does not have to be any more 'qualified'.

    I should say that no system is perfect and i'm not entirely unhappy with the scheme and its aims; however, it's a bit clunky; doesn't seem to work in places; allows for hurdles and hoops to be applied too easily; it's not supported enough; and, has people managing it applying double and triple standards!

    a NAP is not a scouting A-level!

    but here's the rub: why are so few leaders 'qualified' to lead a NA activity, about 25% by my reckoning - and that's any form of NA activity, even indoor (which used to be called level 1) - yet when we look elsewhere (MattR) there are 100% of leaders eligible to lead what many would consider a fundamental programme element of scouting?

    or do people consider 25% sufficient?

    TM
    Look, it's really not that illogical.

    NAPs are supposed to be competent to run a camp and/or supervise another leader running a camp.

    NAAs are supposed to assess whether someone is capable of running a camp on their own without supervision.

    There's a world of difference between popping to the shops for a few hours (like a NAP holder can) and letting someone go off to run a camp on their own (like a NAA can).

    The only real question is how much flexibility to give NAP holders to be off-site. I think leaving it up to judgement of NAP holders with the proviso that they need to be there overnight is a pretty sensible option.

  5. #50
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    What I meant was, they don't want to do overnighters at all.
    I understand what you're saying. I would find it surprising to have 100% of leaders happy to do overnighters even if they were staying at claridge's.

    I knew a number of leaders who wouldn't think of camping, campsite let alone greenfield. I didn't know of too many that did not want to go on any overnighters. Yes there are more so-called 2h a week people these days in leader positions who just can't do weekend camps and such like.

    I don't have a problem with these people. scouting needs a range of people.

    however, to have a fundamental element of the programme, nights away, seemingly not supported by numbers of leaders is somewhat bizarre. And this element is marked out as one of the programme standards for all sections.

    we're not saying that 75% of eligible leaders don't want to do any NA at all, really? I could possibly see 20-25% not wanting to do any form of NA but not 75-80%!

    my question at the start of this thread could be framed as: if we have 75% of leaders happy to do NA experiences, even just one night indoors, why have we seemingly so few 'qualified' to do so (25%)?

    I believe the potential resource is there but we use so little of it. (why is that? was another question of mine)

    TM
    retired 21 March 2017

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    It seems to me, TSA is dead keen to be auditing, measuring and recording skill sets - but perhaps isn't great at encouraging those skill sets exist in the first place.

    Is there an accepted method by which NAA's are validated, in the same or similar way NAP holders are by those selfsame NAA's?

  8. #52
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    The previous CSL's are a good example as it happens. They didn't have a NAP between them because they didn't have time to organise nights away.
    Oh Pulease! They didn't have time to organise a night away? Not one?

    What is involved in setting up a NA for Cubs.

    Visit Bonaly or Fordel Firs. Book a date, book a bunkhouse. The site visit can be done away with if the Group is familiar with the site. Not too onerous, a quick couple of emails - 10 minutes. ( I booked a site this morning. it took all of 30 seconds!)

    Write a letter/ booking form. Attach a Health Form. Add kit list .Print off. 15 - 30 mins max on a PC

    Issue said forms to Cubs. ( No time consumed as the Leaders are there anyway).

    Get numbers in, at the next couple of meetings. No time call.

    Tally the numbers - 2 mins

    Work out the tentage - 10 mins max

    Form NAN - email it to the DC - couple of minutes.

    When you get your Health forms back, you copy them, one set with the camp, one set with In Touch contact.

    Work out the catering - probably the longest time element in planning - maybe half an hour to an hour. The more you do the quicker it gets.

    Work out what activities are to be done - maybe 30 -40 minutes

    Camp is planned. 2 hours 17 mins max. Call it 3 hours. It is no biggie and saying there is not enough time is a bit of an excuse. No apologies.

    Sorting out the kit for camp - 2 hours.
    Shopping for camp - 3 Hours


    Essentially, the planning can be done over maybe three weeks, so an hour a week extra - I bet most people spend more time than that having photocopier breaks...

    The kit gathering can be a pain if it is not all in one place. But split the work - One does the Shopping, the other CSL gets the Cubs to get the kit out ( unless of course it is not stored at the hall) But nonetheless, split the load. It takes no real time.

    If Leaders are not running camps, it is not because they don't have time to plan them. It is more like they don't have the confidence. They see how Smithy operates in Cubs and there is no way they are taking Smithy on an overnight camp. Or perhaps they never cook at home, so cannot contemplate catering for four adults and 24 excited Cubs. Perhaps they just plain don't like camping. But time is almost certainly not the issue.

    I'll validate this. When my kids were involved we camped a stupid number of weekends every year for aboput eight years. Then the weekends started tailing off. Now, because we are actually not nuts about camping and we don't get a great response when we do run camps we have backed off. The last three camps were cancelled due to lack of interest. Which is why this time the kids are organising the camp.

    (The reality is that when we do get them on camp, it is actually usually good fun, but our old bones creak more every year).
    Ewan Scott

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  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Oh Pulease! They didn't have time to organise a night away? Not one?

    What is involved in setting up a NA for Cubs.

    Visit Bonaly or Fordel Firs. Book a date, book a bunkhouse. The site visit can be done away with if the Group is familiar with the site. Not too onerous, a quick couple of emails - 10 minutes. ( I booked a site this morning. it took all of 30 seconds!)

    Write a letter/ booking form. Attach a Health Form. Add kit list .Print off. 15 - 30 mins max on a PC

    Issue said forms to Cubs. ( No time consumed as the Leaders are there anyway).

    Get numbers in, at the next couple of meetings. No time call.

    Tally the numbers - 2 mins

    Work out the tentage - 10 mins max

    Form NAN - email it to the DC - couple of minutes.

    When you get your Health forms back, you copy them, one set with the camp, one set with In Touch contact.

    Work out the catering - probably the longest time element in planning - maybe half an hour to an hour. The more you do the quicker it gets.

    Work out what activities are to be done - maybe 30 -40 minutes

    Camp is planned. 2 hours 17 mins max. Call it 3 hours. It is no biggie and saying there is not enough time is a bit of an excuse. No apologies.

    Sorting out the kit for camp - 2 hours.
    Shopping for camp - 3 Hours


    Essentially, the planning can be done over maybe three weeks, so an hour a week extra - I bet most people spend more time than that having photocopier breaks...

    The kit gathering can be a pain if it is not all in one place. But split the work - One does the Shopping, the other CSL gets the Cubs to get the kit out ( unless of course it is not stored at the hall) But nonetheless, split the load. It takes no real time.

    If Leaders are not running camps, it is not because they don't have time to plan them. It is more like they don't have the confidence. They see how Smithy operates in Cubs and there is no way they are taking Smithy on an overnight camp. Or perhaps they never cook at home, so cannot contemplate catering for four adults and 24 excited Cubs. Perhaps they just plain don't like camping. But time is almost certainly not the issue.

    I'll validate this. When my kids were involved we camped a stupid number of weekends every year for aboput eight years. Then the weekends started tailing off. Now, because we are actually not nuts about camping and we don't get a great response when we do run camps we have backed off. The last three camps were cancelled due to lack of interest. Which is why this time the kids are organising the camp.

    (The reality is that when we do get them on camp, it is actually usually good fun, but our old bones creak more every year).
    I mean, its a nice list - but you've missed out huge swathes of work, especially with younger kids and skittish parents. Its just not that straight forward. I suspect, in this case - they looked at the kids, then looked at their parents and thought; its not worth the bother. They did other things outwith meeting nights and they had a full house, so they were doing something right. For various reasons, nights away did not happen.

    I dare say, they also maybe looked at the NAA's checklist (I just did) and thought - good grief, no thanks - and moved on to the gala parade or the funding they got from the Science Museum...

    Also, not knowing the leaders in question, I don't think you can be quite so dismissive (or assumptive) about what time they did or didn't have. And remember, these people did not come to us, we went to them - which I maintain, plays a big part in how keen new leaders are to embark upon adventurous forays in to the world of Scouting bureaucracy never mind the verdant outdoors, (or Claridges, which incidentally, I'd be all for, just without the kids... Although, it would be massively entertaining...).



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    I understand what you're saying. I would find it surprising to have 100% of leaders happy to do overnighters even if they were staying at claridge's.

    I knew a number of leaders who wouldn't think of camping, campsite let alone greenfield. I didn't know of too many that did not want to go on any overnighters. Yes there are more so-called 2h a week people these days in leader positions who just can't do weekend camps and such like.

    I don't have a problem with these people. scouting needs a range of people.

    however, to have a fundamental element of the programme, nights away, seemingly not supported by numbers of leaders is somewhat bizarre. And this element is marked out as one of the programme standards for all sections.

    we're not saying that 75% of eligible leaders don't want to do any NA at all, really? I could possibly see 20-25% not wanting to do any form of NA but not 75-80%!

    my question at the start of this thread could be framed as: if we have 75% of leaders happy to do NA experiences, even just one night indoors, why have we seemingly so few 'qualified' to do so (25%)?

    I believe the potential resource is there but we use so little of it. (why is that? was another question of mine)

    TM
    I agree.

    I think however, that with the way we now often recruit leaders, this is a reality. We talk people into taking on roles, we might say, start slowly with section nights and we'll take it from there - progress at a reasonable speed. But they never get round to camps/nights away. I'm positive the Nights Away system does put people off (the checklist is scary enough...)

    I think its cyclical too. Our Beavers for example, never do nights away - its just not expected. Its got to the point where, parents would be quite surprised if it was suggested - and I think many would say no. Like Ewan says, we got out of the habit and so did our membership. Cubs and Scouts, not so much so - its been a while, but the kids seem up for it. And one of the first things the new CSL's did was start in on a weekend away.

    I don't know what the percentages are, I think we're in a more parlous state here having little in the way of a district - so its down to groups to bring people on and a lot of people in groups are already double (and triple) jobbing.

    Its tough.

  10. #54
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Oh Pulease! They didn't have time to organise a night away? Not one?

    What is involved in setting up a NA for Cubs.

    Visit Bonaly or Fordel Firs. Book a date, book a bunkhouse. The site visit can be done away with if the Group is familiar with the site. Not too onerous, a quick couple of emails - 10 minutes. ( I booked a site this morning. it took all of 30 seconds!)

    Write a letter/ booking form. Attach a Health Form. Add kit list .Print off. 15 - 30 mins max on a PC

    Issue said forms to Cubs. ( No time consumed as the Leaders are there anyway).

    Get numbers in, at the next couple of meetings. No time call.

    Tally the numbers - 2 mins

    Work out the tentage - 10 mins max

    Form NAN - email it to the DC - couple of minutes.

    When you get your Health forms back, you copy them, one set with the camp, one set with In Touch contact.

    Work out the catering - probably the longest time element in planning - maybe half an hour to an hour. The more you do the quicker it gets.

    Work out what activities are to be done - maybe 30 -40 minutes

    Camp is planned. 2 hours 17 mins max. Call it 3 hours. It is no biggie and saying there is not enough time is a bit of an excuse. No apologies.

    Sorting out the kit for camp - 2 hours.
    Shopping for camp - 3 Hours


    Essentially, the planning can be done over maybe three weeks, so an hour a week extra - I bet most people spend more time than that having photocopier breaks...

    The kit gathering can be a pain if it is not all in one place. But split the work - One does the Shopping, the other CSL gets the Cubs to get the kit out ( unless of course it is not stored at the hall) But nonetheless, split the load. It takes no real time.

    If Leaders are not running camps, it is not because they don't have time to plan them. It is more like they don't have the confidence. They see how Smithy operates in Cubs and there is no way they are taking Smithy on an overnight camp. Or perhaps they never cook at home, so cannot contemplate catering for four adults and 24 excited Cubs. Perhaps they just plain don't like camping. But time is almost certainly not the issue.

    I'll validate this. When my kids were involved we camped a stupid number of weekends every year for aboput eight years. Then the weekends started tailing off. Now, because we are actually not nuts about camping and we don't get a great response when we do run camps we have backed off. The last three camps were cancelled due to lack of interest. Which is why this time the kids are organising the camp.

    (The reality is that when we do get them on camp, it is actually usually good fun, but our old bones creak more every year).
    I would agree that, for those of us who regularly organise camps, it can be done pretty quickly. Last year two of us completely turned around a whole new plan for a 6 night Scout Summer Camp (menu, programme, detailed plans, etc) in the pub over dinner - and then spent a couple of hours one evening printing maps, intouch details, etc.

    We don't use health forms per camp - we print a spreadsheet off OSM - so even less work.

    BUT for a new leader, running a first camp, it takes time. Time sat down working out how to do a programme from scratch, or sitting down with a more experienced leader to discuss how to do it. Time working out food quantities and the menu. Time to find out where sites are, visit them, work out how to lay the site out. etc.
    Dan Spencer

    Group Scout Leader 66th Bath
    Deputy District Commissioner (Programme) - City of Bath District
    Nights Away Adviser and member of District Executive Committee - City of Bath District
    Member of Avon County Appointments Advisory Committee
    Event organiser "Be Prepared" Resilience Events
    Formerly CSL, SL, ASL and Jamboree Communications Lead

    Web designer


    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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  12. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    I would agree that, for those of us who regularly organise camps, it can be done pretty quickly. Last year two of us completely turned around a whole new plan for a 6 night Scout Summer Camp (menu, programme, detailed plans, etc) in the pub over dinner - and then spent a couple of hours one evening printing maps, intouch details, etc.

    We don't use health forms per camp - we print a spreadsheet off OSM - so even less work.

    BUT for a new leader, running a first camp, it takes time. Time sat down working out how to do a programme from scratch, or sitting down with a more experienced leader to discuss how to do it. Time working out food quantities and the menu. Time to find out where sites are, visit them, work out how to lay the site out. etc.
    And that's before you hit reluctance from the only NAP holder in the group to do the sort of camp you're thinking of. Before you hit the "oh **** what do you mean we don't have any tables?" moments, or the "Ok, how many gas burners do we need to buy to cook on camp? (Because all the camps for the last 5+ years have involved an indoor kitchen....)

    As Bushfells said in among that, a lot of it comes down to confidence. But there can be myriad of other reasons too.

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    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    And that's before you hit reluctance from the only NAP holder in the group to do the sort of camp you're thinking of. Before you hit the "oh **** what do you mean we don't have any tables?" moments, or the "Ok, how many gas burners do we need to buy to cook on camp? (Because all the camps for the last 5+ years have involved an indoor kitchen....)

    As Bushfells said in among that, a lot of it comes down to confidence. But there can be myriad of other reasons too.
    When we restarted the group we had to beg, borrow or buy a lot of kit. My wife's guides were getting rid of some patrol tents so we acquired those (not in great condition, and almost all are now beyond use) and we later borrowed a few from district (in not much better condition).

    Cookware we had - and we have supplemented it as we went. As funds improved we replaced a lot of the rubbish with better stuff (and a recent donation of a huge pile of professional cookware has helped). Tables we have just bought a load more - and an escouter on here sorted us out with a lot of chairs!

    But all that takes time. We now have sufficient cookware, burners, plates, etc to cater for well over 100 (although we do group camp at a site with a central kitchen we now take over 50 people on cub camps etc). Tent wise we can accommodate around 50 in patrol tents (although some of them are a bit dubious now), 24 in hike tents, and a further 15 in larger "modern" tents.

    But for a new group, or an old group that hasn't camped for a long time - sorting out kit takes ages. Even for us, it takes quite a while to get it out of rather inconvenient stores (upstairs, under the stairs, in sheds, etc) - lay it all out, then carry it to the closest space we can park a van.

    As an aside, this summer we have borrowed a box trailer all summer. Its been great to be able to leave a lot of the heavy kit packed from last weekend's camp and its currently on my drive packed ready for cub summer camp.
    Dan Spencer

    Group Scout Leader 66th Bath
    Deputy District Commissioner (Programme) - City of Bath District
    Nights Away Adviser and member of District Executive Committee - City of Bath District
    Member of Avon County Appointments Advisory Committee
    Event organiser "Be Prepared" Resilience Events
    Formerly CSL, SL, ASL and Jamboree Communications Lead

    Web designer


    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Must admit that in my case a combination of calls on my time, poor experiences on previous Scouting camps, and pretty much total lack of kit makes even the thought of trying to plan and run a camp something that just gets kicked down the road for another day.

    To take my Cubs away as an entire pack I'd need 4 adults - I have 3 so I'd need to rope in a parent. I'd then need to get them DBS checked. Then we've probably got some tents but I'd need to sort out what is useable and what needs burning. Most of the rest of the camping stuff got condemned and skipped during a recent clear out so we'd need a whole set of catering stuff. Which is all before I start thinking about menus and programme or even where we'd go. You kind of look down the barrel of that lot and wonder where I really like other peoples kids that much. Mine get to go with me as much as they want (probably more than they want!).

    I know we could go with someone else but even that has its pitfalls. I'd feel like I was being watched if my lot didn't behave well enough or our kit wasn't up to scratch. I'm sure most wouldn't be looking down on us but its easy to feel self conscious.

    So another summer passes and the idea of getting a permit gets shelved again - the excuse of lack of time is the easiest one to state. I'm sure once you have all the stuff and have done it enough that its easy, then its less of a problem.

    (Edit - I say I need 4 adults - that is absolute bare minimum and one reason I hated a previous camp was because it was done on bare minimum adults so I went home dead on my feet - we need at least a couple more before I'd seriously think about it!)
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    Must admit that in my case a combination of calls on my time, poor experiences on previous Scouting camps, and pretty much total lack of kit makes even the thought of trying to plan and run a camp something that just gets kicked down the road for another day.

    To take my Cubs away as an entire pack I'd need 4 adults - I have 3 so I'd need to rope in a parent. I'd then need to get them DBS checked. Then we've probably got some tents but I'd need to sort out what is useable and what needs burning. Most of the rest of the camping stuff got condemned and skipped during a recent clear out so we'd need a whole set of catering stuff. Which is all before I start thinking about menus and programme or even where we'd go. You kind of look down the barrel of that lot and wonder where I really like other peoples kids that much. Mine get to go with me as much as they want (probably more than they want!).

    I know we could go with someone else but even that has its pitfalls. I'd feel like I was being watched if my lot didn't behave well enough or our kit wasn't up to scratch. I'm sure most wouldn't be looking down on us but its easy to feel self conscious.

    So another summer passes and the idea of getting a permit gets shelved again - the excuse of lack of time is the easiest one to state. I'm sure once you have all the stuff and have done it enough that its easy, then its less of a problem.

    (Edit - I say I need 4 adults - that is absolute bare minimum and one reason I hated a previous camp was because it was done on bare minimum adults so I went home dead on my feet - we need at least a couple more before I'd seriously think about it!)
    You could look at some of the scout sites which now have permanent tents and buildings with catering facilities. For instance Thriftwood (near us) has a permanent village with a large marquee with catering equipment, plates, utensils, etc. They also have tents that they will put up for you if you want to use one of the buildings with a kitchen in it.
    I do agree with you about the number of adults - it is great to be able to have an hour off to chill.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    You could look at some of the scout sites which now have permanent tents and buildings with catering facilities. For instance Thriftwood (near us) has a permanent village with a large marquee with catering equipment, plates, utensils, etc. They also have tents that they will put up for you if you want to use one of the buildings with a kitchen in it.
    I do agree with you about the number of adults - it is great to be able to have an hour off to chill.
    Indeed. Woodhouse park (as much as I'm not a huge fan of the site) does have a tented village with catering facilities. Could be an easy option to get them out camping with minimal effort.
    Dan Spencer

    Group Scout Leader 66th Bath
    Deputy District Commissioner (Programme) - City of Bath District
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    It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    I fail to see why shifty had to undertake a practical assessment. OTT and frankly insulting in opinion.
    Why would I find it insulting to demonstrate doing something I am claiming to be able to do? As we were running a Group camp anyway and I would have been doing most of the organising regardless so it was no skin off my nose for the NAA to come along and see me in action and see that it was me running things and not our GSL who was the NAP holder for the camp.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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