Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 138

Thread: Nights Away: Where are we going? How many can go!?

  1. #1
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    'auchtermuchty'
    Posts
    7,345
    Thanks
    342
    Thanked 1,519 Times in 961 Posts

    Nights Away: Where are we going? How many can go!?

    Just curious.

    Chatting to an ex-treasurer the other day, who was asking me about Nights Away. (SWMBO had been away with her section.) She asked me:

    How many Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3 Nights Away permits are there in a district as a percentage (roughly) of the total adult leadership (i.e. those who are potentially able to hold a NA permit)? How many have no permit, even level 1 (residential)? (What impact does this have?)

    What figures (roughly) would you expect/hope to see in a typical district (yours maybe!)?

    If you are currently below these figures, what targets are there to up them, and will you meet them? What potential barriers are there to getting a NA permit, any level permit?

    Couldn't really give her any answers. (Never was a NAA or even remotely connected.)

    She was curious, now I'm curious.

    Quite a few NA people on the forum, so over to you!

    TM
    retired 21 March 2017

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    760
    Thanks
    619
    Thanked 287 Times in 140 Posts
    I wouldn't have an expectation for a District. I would suggest that:

    Each Cub Pack should aim to have a Campsite Permit held by at least one of the leader team so that the Cub pack can run a camp.

    Each Scout Troop and ESU leader team to have permits that enable them to run campsite and expedition (and ideally to have a greenfield option).

    The role of District and Region (in our case) is to run training and to manage the permit assessment and renewal.

    Within a group I would expect NAP holders to support each other in gaining NAPs (in order to be assessed you really need another permit holder to be involved). Where a group currently has no NAPs then District should be trying to provide support.

    G

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to GScrimgeour For This Useful Post:

    merryweather (15-07-2017)

  4. #3
    Senior Member Epona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Vale White Horse, Oxfordshire
    Posts
    277
    Thanks
    71
    Thanked 25 Times in 17 Posts
    More curiosity; are the number of permit holders proportional to adult retention rates in an area?

  5. #4
    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,162
    Thanks
    65
    Thanked 295 Times in 211 Posts
    We have 18 Groups. One is a new group and don't yet have any NA permits. Of the other 17 most have more than one NA permit type between the leaders with one group only having one permit type although that is a Greenfield so encompasses all. Currently it's 93 leaders across the 17 groups with a permit of some sort. 11 Indoor, 51 Campsite, and 29 Greenfield. We also have about 6 applications in progress.
    Every group, inc the one with no permit holders, have had nights away experiences this year and all of them are about to embark on their annual camps which is the critical thing to be looking at rather than the numbers of permit holders. No way is this going to become a bean counting exercise.

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mallah For This Useful Post:

    ianw (16-07-2017),merryweather (15-07-2017)

  7. #5
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    'auchtermuchty'
    Posts
    7,345
    Thanks
    342
    Thanked 1,519 Times in 961 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    We have 18 Groups. One is a new group and don't yet have any NA permits. Of the other 17 most have more than one NA permit type between the leaders with one group only having one permit type although that is a Greenfield so encompasses all. Currently it's 93 leaders across the 17 groups with a permit of some sort. 11 Indoor, 51 Campsite, and 29 Greenfield. We also have about 6 applications in progress.
    Every group, inc the one with no permit holders, have had nights away experiences this year and all of them are about to embark on their annual camps which is the critical thing to be looking at rather than the numbers of permit holders. No way is this going to become a bean counting exercise.
    many thanks for this.

    so you have roughly 5 permit holders per group. how many leaders do you have roughly per group? what my ex-treasurer was looking at was the spread and extent of NAPs. 93 NAPs sounds a good number at face value but if that number is just one-fifth say of the total adults in the district does is still sound good?

    my last group had just 2 NAPs (in 8 leaders) and one before that had 1 in 7. i have heard of groups with none.

    groups with few NAP holders potentially have got to struggle to run NA if their NAPs aren't available or they're going to have to borrow from elsewhere.

    having one greenfield permit in each group has got to be a good thing (and a target) but not if it covers up having few others. a group with say 90% leaders having just NAP level 1 (residential) is likely to have more NA experiences.

    is there a desire to have 100% of leaders with greenfield? is this necessary? (is it realistic!?)

    we talk about spreading the load on leaders but if a group is to have an active NA programme (of any sort) it's going to struggle to do so with just one or two leaders.

    it is about having enough beans not just a few pretty yellow ones!

    TM
    retired 21 March 2017

  8. #6
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    'auchtermuchty'
    Posts
    7,345
    Thanks
    342
    Thanked 1,519 Times in 961 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by GScrimgeour View Post
    I wouldn't have an expectation for a District.
    maybe because you're not the DC!

    however, i do think that every DC looks at the 'depth' and 'spread' of NAPs in a district. if only half the groups have at least 1 NAP holder, even if a 'yellow bean', then 50% are going to struggle to meet 'standards' and/or those holders are going to be doing quite a bit extra...

    I would suggest that:

    Each Cub Pack should aim to have a Campsite Permit held by at least one of the leader team so that the Cub pack can run a camp.
    nothing for beavers?

    just one of the leader team? and if they have to work away for a bit or are unwell?

    Each Scout Troop and ESU leader team to have permits that enable them to run campsite and expedition (and ideally to have a greenfield option).
    so how many permits? would having at least one Level 2 suffice? if you had a leader team of 3 or 4 would you not want 3 or all 4 to hold at least level 1 and at least 2 to have level 2, and then at least 1 to have level 3? if the level 3 NAP is off to singapore with work for 6 months then at least there's someone potentially available to at least run a level 2, or even if they're sick someone at least can take the troop to the local district bunkhouse.

    The role of District and Region (in our case) is to run training and to manage the permit assessment and renewal.
    of course. districts should also be keeping an eye on groups strategically and ensuring as best as possible that support for resources is available.

    if a district has say just 25% of groups with at least 1 NAP holder (blue, green or yellow bean holders!) should it not be asking itself why is that so, what effect is that having/going to have on NA experiences, and what can be done to improve the numbers (i.e. is district management of the scheme hindering numbers)?

    Within a group I would expect NAP holders to support each other in gaining NAPs (in order to be assessed you really need another permit holder to be involved). Where a group currently has no NAPs then District should be trying to provide support.
    yes NAPs need to support each other. GSLs need to ensure that sufficient resource is available. (you don't always need a practical assessment.) etc. however, district also need to be proactive and not just sitting there 'providing support'. it needs to look at what in it's processes may be holding up permits, for example.

    so what my friend was asking was across a typical 'average' district what sort of NAP coverage should they be looking at: 80-90% of all leaders holding at least level 1, 50% level 2, and 15% level 3, for example? (and what roughly do you have now?)

    what would be the possible impact if only 50% of groups had leaders with at least one NAP and that in those groups it was only 25% of leaders?

    is there a target? should there be one?

    TM
    retired 21 March 2017

  9. #7
    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,162
    Thanks
    65
    Thanked 295 Times in 211 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    many thanks for this.

    so you have roughly 5 permit holders per group. how many leaders do you have roughly per group? what my ex-treasurer was looking at was the spread and extent of NAPs. 93 NAPs sounds a good number at face value but if that number is just one-fifth say of the total adults in the district does is still sound good?
    We have 340 leaders i.e. Section leaders, Assistant Section leaders, Group Scout leaders, and Assistant Group Scout leaders between the 17 groups with permits.

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Mallah For This Useful Post:

    merryweather (15-07-2017)

  11. #8
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    3,244
    Thanks
    105
    Thanked 439 Times in 247 Posts
    We have the following with NAPs (Leaders, Asst Leaders, or Section Assistants)

    Beavers 1 in 10
    Cubs 1 in 7
    Scouts 1 in 7
    Explorers 1 in 4
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Kastor For This Useful Post:

    merryweather (15-07-2017)

  13. #9
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    'auchtermuchty'
    Posts
    7,345
    Thanks
    342
    Thanked 1,519 Times in 961 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    We have 340 leaders i.e. Section leaders, Assistant Section leaders, Group Scout leaders, and Assistant Group Scout leaders between the 17 groups with permits.
    many thanks for the info update.

    so if my maths is correct that's just over one quarter of adults able to hold a permit who actually have a permit? twenty-seven percent? (and still just under 30% when we add in the 6 in process.)

    so 70% of eligible adults in the district don't have a NAP of any sort, even level 1 (residential)?

    i've actually no idea whether these numbers are good or not so good.

    does that not seem quite a lot of 'weight' of programme being carried by so few? one of the so-called 'standards' in scouting is that young people get NA opportunities but what do the numbers suggest about meeting those standards?

    i actually suspect that your district is well above average in this respect and my comments are not meant to be criticism but simply aim to highlight what some might call an anomaly and others a significant challenge.

    do these levels of NAP impact on say district provision of campsites/bunkhouses/lodges. if i've just spent £50k on upgrading the toilets in the district lodge/campsite to improve facilities to attract more local visitors, someone looking at these figures might just question my financial reasoning!

    surely someone has got to be thinking of increasing these numbers?

    how much of a challenge would it be to have 70% of eligible adults to have at least level 1 NAP?

    TM

    p.s hopefully this thread might even get a wanderer from 1FB to comment!
    retired 21 March 2017

  14. #10
    Assistant Beaver Leader Keith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ingleby Barwick, England
    Posts
    3,587
    Thanks
    113
    Thanked 77 Times in 63 Posts
    Even though I have completed all my Nights Away training as part of my Wood badge and done an assessment camp when permits were first introduced I have never applied for a permit - I don't really want one as I don't want the responsibility, even though the outgoing DC told me a number of years ago that she'd be happy to approve one. In my group I have literally been on more Beaver nights away then anybody else but I have never really wanted to be the one in charge - camp leader or permit holder.

    I dare say if I applied I could get one and it would help those that don't have one to plan camps, but I don't really want one.

    At the moment we only have one leader with a nights away permit, which means she goes to alot of camps as permit holder, but ideally we should have atleast one permit holder in each section.
    Keith "Hawkeye"
    Assistant Beaver Scout Leader (Woodbadge)
    Ex Colony Assistant & DofE Helper
    1st Ingleby Barwick (St Francis) Scout Group

    Ex DofE Helper (Beavers), 1st Egglescliffe (St John's) Scout Group



    http://www.inglebybarwickscouts.org.uk

    WE NEED MORE ADULT VOLUNTEERS!
    Volunteer at 1st Ingleby Barwick Scout Group
    Assistant Section Leaders, Sectional Assistants, etc.


  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Keith For This Useful Post:

    merryweather (15-07-2017)

  16. #11
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    'auchtermuchty'
    Posts
    7,345
    Thanks
    342
    Thanked 1,519 Times in 961 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    We have the following with NAPs (Leaders, Asst Leaders, or Section Assistants)


    Beavers 1 in 10
    Cubs 1 in 7
    Scouts 1 in 7
    Explorers 1 in 4

    thanks kastor!


    so maths again! i make that 4 in 28 or just under 15% having at least level 1 NAP? put another way, 85% of eligible adults not having a NA permit of at least level 1.


    i suspect these numbers are typical.


    so the question is why are they so low, if they are actually 'low'?


    i can't believe anyone could argue that these levels are 'adequate' to support a programme that supposedly has outdoors as a central theme.


    And we have POR in 3.7, 3.8. and 3.9 (iirc because i forget where the 'standards' are listed) a so-called 'standard' that says that every young person must have the opportunity to have at least 1 NA per year. I fail to see how that can be achieved when the numbers of NAPs are down in 20% region at best.


    what do these numbers suggest?


    do they suggest that large numbers of adults in scouting do not wish to lead NA experiences? (we're talking possibly 3/4 of adults and we're not even talking camping!)


    or do they suggest that the permit scheme is flawed?


    or do they suggest the scheme is not being supported? (and it should be because POR defines who must give support!)


    and what impact does this have on the large number of residential and campsite properties to be found in scouting? (i'm sure someone with financial acumen might suggest it would be best to sell off most of them!)


    TM
    retired 21 March 2017

  17. #12
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    11,573
    Thanks
    2,548
    Thanked 855 Times in 567 Posts
    Our Group has the following
    Beavers - 3 Leaders no NAPs (The GSL and AGSL cover the Beavers for any nights away)
    Cubs - 4 Leaders no NAPs (The GSL and AGSL cover the Cubs for any nights away and/or they go on joint events with the Scouts)
    Scouts - 3 Leaders 1 Greenfield NAP
    The GSL and AGSL both have a greenfield NAP each. Our Beaver team are all relatively new and all still going through training, our CSL does not want to be responsible for running NA (he is happy to support and attend NA events just not to be the orgnsier and NAP holder)

    For Explorers in the District I think the situation is
    8 Units, not sure how many Explorer Leaders or Assistant Leaders in total but at least 18 and probably quite a few more and there are at least 7 NAP permit holders all either campsite or greenfield

    As to our District as a whole there are 16 Groups and 8 ESUs, 198 Leaders/Group Leaders/District Leaders & Comissioners plus 62 Section Assistants or Skills Instructors and Compass says the number of NAP holders breaks down as follows
    Total 58
    Greenfield 24
    Campsite 32
    Indoor 1
    Lightweight 1

    Making the assumpition that no Section Assistant has a NAP (from the names of the permit holders I think this is correct but I only know most of them not all of them) would mean just under 30% of our District's Leaders have a NAP.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 15-07-2017 at 07:52 PM.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to shiftypete For This Useful Post:

    merryweather (15-07-2017)

  19. #13
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    'auchtermuchty'
    Posts
    7,345
    Thanks
    342
    Thanked 1,519 Times in 961 Posts
    thanks for replies so far. keep them coming!

    so numbers so far suggest that some 15 - 30% of eligible adults in a district hold a NAP at least at level 1. and we know that there are anomalies within these average figures where whole sections in places have no NAP holders.

    what do these numbers suggest?

    do they suggest that large numbers of adults in scouting do not wish to lead NA experiences or do they suggest that the permit scheme is flawed or that there are too many hurdles to overcome?

    compare and contrast that with figures from your district before the adoption of the current permit scheme. what percentage of leaders back then were eligible to lead a NA experience, let's say a residential (indoor) just for one night?

    if your district has a bunkhouse say and only 20% of leaders with at least a level 1 NAP, does this low number impact upon its use and viability?

    TM
    retired 21 March 2017

  20. #14
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    11,573
    Thanks
    2,548
    Thanked 855 Times in 567 Posts
    Its hard to judge, for example in our Group we only have 1 out of 3 sections where a Leader has a NAP however botht he GSL and AGSL have NAPs and happily use these to run NA for the two sections without NAPs whose Leaders either do not want to have their own NAP or have not been involved long enough to have gained one. As such the lack of NAPs within the Section Leadership has minimal effect on these Sections ability to run NA events. We work as a Group and often help out with other Sections like this so its really not needed for each Section to have their own NAP holder.

    However in another Group the lack of a NAP holder within a Section might well mean that Section do little of no NA events and as such the lack of a NAP holder has a massive impact on those Sections.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  21. #15
    nele
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Brussels
    Posts
    2,811
    Thanks
    61
    Thanked 145 Times in 99 Posts
    currently from our 24 leaders (3 colonies, 3 packs, 2 troops and EU)
    we have no beaver leaders with permits
    2 cub campsite permits (one is the district NAA)
    1 cub indoor
    1 scout indoor permit (working on campsite)
    1 Explorer campsite/expedition permit

    GSL campsite & expedition- but currently not available
    SAS members -several ex Beaver and scout leaders with permits but so far only one has expressed willingness to help with camps in the future..some only left this June.

    Greenfield- not really needed as we have no access to sites locally
    We've recently had a lot of permit holders move on and we have a lot of new leaders who haven't yet had a chance to qualify.

    When people don't have the time/inclination to do a permit it does impact on the nr of nights away a section can offer. Scouts now offer fewer NA in comparision to 5 years ago, although there are still opportunities for those who wish. Many of our camps are multiple section eg all beavers or all cubs but that also means extra organisation to cater for large numbers. At scout level there are more opportunities together with the other Benelux based troops (organised by the ADC scouts)

    - - - Updated - - -

Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Nights away
    By eskibrew in forum Project Compass
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-01-2015, 12:29 PM
  2. One of those nights ...
    By BalooNav in forum Cub Scouts
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 30-01-2011, 10:41 PM
  3. nights away
    By nicki in forum Adult Training & Support
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-04-2010, 07:03 PM
  4. Nights away - nights from previous section?
    By kezzy in forum Programme Ideas & Resources
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-02-2009, 08:33 PM
  5. Just One of Those Nights....!!!
    By Dramatist in forum Scouts
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 16-06-2008, 10:57 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •