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Thread: Section 21 Shooting Declaration

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    Section 21 Shooting Declaration

    Our Cub Scouts are shooting tomorrow night. I have just sent out a standard section 21 declaration to them all and a few parents have emailed me back completed copies.

    Is there anything to say that these forms can't be stored/ held digitally for the duration of the event rather than me printing them all out?
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    ASL Kev's Avatar
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    I would insist on seeing a signature on paper (I mean for parental permission to shoot). Most shooting permission forms I have seen include the section 21 declaration.
    Last edited by Kev; 09-10-2017 at 01:30 PM.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Nothing so long as you have them on record and can produce them is required. All your paper copy would be is a print out of a digital file - no more acurate than the digital copy. (IMO)
    Ewan Scott

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsheehan View Post
    Our Cub Scouts are shooting tomorrow night. I have just sent out a standard section 21 declaration to them all and a few parents have emailed me back completed copies.

    Is there anything to say that these forms can't be stored/ held digitally for the duration of the event rather than me printing them all out?
    Obtaining a s21 declaration is not mandatory. All you have to show is that you did not allow a firearm for which you are responsible come into the hands of someone who is barred or restricted from handling firearms. Areasonable measure to demonstrate this is by obtaining a s21 declaration. As the majority of your cubs are likely to be aged below 10 you can reasonably assume that they have not got any firearm convictions or cautions.
    Obtaining a s21 declaration is good practice. It can be obtained by any number of means; by email is okay. you do not need to print them out. you do not need to keep them.

    What of course you must obtain is the written permission of aparent or guardian of the young person; this is mandatory in POR.

    TM
    Last edited by merryweather; 09-10-2017 at 01:30 PM.
    going...going...still here...just

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    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    Sorry, for scouting rules I would want to see the original "wet" signature from the parent... Not a scan not a photocopy or photograph but the actual signature in ink

    [edit]
    That's for the permission form rather than the s21 but ideally they would be combined anyway [/edit]

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    Last edited by dasy2k1; 09-10-2017 at 02:25 PM.
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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasy2k1 View Post
    Sorry, for scouting rules I would want to see the original "wet" signature from the parent... Not a scan not a photocopy or photograph but the actual signature in ink

    [edit]
    That's for the permission form rather than the s21 but ideally they would be combined anyway [/edit]

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    Why, specifically?
    Peter

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    Legally something sent electronically is the same as signed. You can electronically sign something.


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    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    Why, specifically?
    Because scouting rules insist on written permission for shooting, not a copy of written permission but actual written permission.

    The same reason you find that certain things legally still need to be signed with an actual pen.... The DVLA recently rejected something I signed electronically and everything that requires a solicitor requires an actual wet signature

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Most business is now done digitally and the courts recognise that a digital original is as good as a hand wrotten document.

    I will ad that my tax returns are done digitally. My charity returns are done digitally, both are legal documents.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 09-10-2017 at 03:40 PM.
    Ewan Scott

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasy2k1 View Post
    Because scouting rules insist on written permission for shooting, not a copy of written permission but actual written permission.

    The same reason you find that certain things legally still need to be signed with an actual pen.... The DVLA recently rejected something I signed electronically and everything that requires a solicitor requires an actual wet signature

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    I'll bow to your obviously superior knowledge in this regard (although I still maintain you are wrong!)
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    This is a decision for the person leading the activity. They'd be legally held responsible so it has to be their decision.

    Paul

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    Senior Member dasy2k1's Avatar
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    I agree that it should be possible to use digital signatures, but realistically how many of your parents would be able to sign a document with a 2048 bit RSA signature? And how many leaders would be capable of verifying that signature?

    And even when I have done this with work documents with an easily verifiable system already in place that is used for encryption of emails on a routine basis so far 75% plus are rejected and I get asked for a wet signature.....

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    if parent emails me permission, i accept it.

    this is not the law of the land... it is SA policy and it is open to interpretation.

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    It does not need a sophisticated electronic signature. If the document has been received electronically from the parent then legally that is sufficient. It would need a clear trail, so that email kept or it showing in a CMS that the individual signing it put it there.

    There are legal documents received and sent in cases heard in courts every day and everyone accepts them through that format.


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  21. #15
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    The law cares as much about the permission to shoot in Scouts as it does about the legal permissions do archery.

    The need to ask for permission is not a legal thing

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