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Thread: How to make Jamboree Selection fair

  1. #61
    Senior Member Douglas's Avatar
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    Itís never going to be completely fair, in so far as each Scout/Explorer should have an equal chance of being selected for a jamboree but in reality thatís impossible to achieve.

    The best that can be said is that no-one involved in the selection process sets out to make the selection unfair.

    There are so many variables in all this.

    Do groups do their own pre-selection, or do they allow all applicants from their group to go forward to district/county?

    How effectively does each district or county publicise their jamboree selection, and do all potential applicants have a reasonable time in which to respond? Talking to some leaders from a neighbouring district, they said that they hadnít found out about the jamboree selection until it was so close to the application deadline as to be too late.

    One thing which was quite noticeable was that groups who had recent attendees at jamborees found it much easier to generate new applications. And Iím told there was one group who made a conscious decision not to pass on the information to potential applicants.

    In my county, each district was allocated a minimum of four places, with a limited number of additional places available from the county selection.
    If a district is successful at generating applications, then that diminishes the chances of selection for each applicant. So for, say 40 applications, thatís a 10% chance of selection. If a district only manages to generate 4 applications, then thatís a 100% chance of selection. We did our district selection with two neighbouring districts (partly so that much of the assessment was done by leaders who didnít know the applicants), and whilst the disparity in the number of applicants from each district wasnít as extreme as the figures above, there was nevertheless a big disparity between the number of applicants from each district.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    I saw at the weekend that Penistone have 14 YP going, that is going to be an awful lot of fundraising.
    Although I did wonder how many other groups applied.
    I think my county restricted the applicants from a District.

    I told my eligible YP it was on and that details were available on the web. The first test, if you like, so they had to demonstrate some sort of interest before applying.


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    So I've done a bit of digging as I am amazed at how 15 YP from one group could be selected for the WSJ. So Penistone have 2 Scout groups and access to one Explorer Unit, not an untypical group size. They are part of South Yorkshire Scouts - a large County with 7 Districts, including Sheffield. Their Jamboree allocation for the County is a full Unit of 36 YP plus a joint Unit of 27 (the other 9 in this unit are from South Yorkshire). So 63 YP in total from this County. Nearly 25% from just one group have been selected - if this percentage was just from a single District then alarm bells would be ringing. Clearly something has gone very badly wrong in this County with the advertising of the WSJ 2019 to its YP for this to happen Congratulations to the 15 YP in the group who have been selected, they'll have an awesome time but I feel very sorry for the many eligible YP in the County who most likely were completely unaware that they could apply for selection

  3. #63
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    The Jamboree's are a bit of "Emperor's New Clothes" to me. They are always put out as the greatest thing since sliced bread but as such as a small number can go that it is largely irrelevant to most members of Scouting.

    Some people will be upset by me saying it's irrelevant but it is, it's no use to Beavers or Cubs, or most Scouts. Even if they've heard of it they will never go. There is all the "hurrah" about getting previous participants to pass on their experiences but I've never had anyone offer to come to my Group and do it. I'm not sure that I'd bother if they did as getting my Group to listen to someone else's "great holiday adventures" when the majority of the audience will never be able to go seems a bit mean.

    My County has had it's selection event and, I assume, it has selected the candidates. There has been no feedback about who they are, what Districts they are from or any information at all. I think, via the grapevine, that there are some from our District but how many and what's Groups I don't know. It would appear that no one else is that fussed about WSJ either.

    WSJ seems to be another anachronism from a different age and maybe all the effort and money spent on it would be better channelled elsewhere.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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  5. #64
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    Re the large number from one Group, that can happen if you have a truly objective selection, and it might well be that the Leaders and programme in that Group being exceptionally good produces exceptionally good Scouts.

    I know in MK one Group got 3, and I know enough about the selection to know this was not bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Re the large number from one Group, that can happen if you have a truly objective selection, and it might well be that the Leaders and programme in that Group being exceptionally good produces exceptionally good Scouts.

    I know in MK one Group got 3, and I know enough about the selection to know this was not bias.
    I don't see a problem with 3 from a group if the selection process is objective and fair but 15 from one group is excessive in the extreme, no matter how good the leaders, the programme or the YP are.

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  8. #66
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Bartlett View Post
    So I've done a bit of digging as I am amazed at how 15 YP from one group could be selected for the WSJ. So Penistone have 2 Scout groups and access to one Explorer Unit, not an untypical group size. They are part of South Yorkshire Scouts - a large County with 7 Districts, including Sheffield. Their Jamboree allocation for the County is a full Unit of 36 YP plus a joint Unit of 27 (the other 9 in this unit are from South Yorkshire). So 63 YP in total from this County. Nearly 25% from just one group have been selected - if this percentage was just from a single District then alarm bells would be ringing. Clearly something has gone very badly wrong in this County with the advertising of the WSJ 2019 to its YP for this to happen Congratulations to the 15 YP in the group who have been selected, they'll have an awesome time but I feel very sorry for the many eligible YP in the County who most likely were completely unaware that they could apply for selection
    I cannot comment too much on Penistone Scouts but I do know that they have good resources and have a good reputation. But 14 from one single group is not even handed, nor is it particularly positive. I would expect a huge amount of fundraising to be done in this medium sized market town and it will almost certainly suck the funding pool dry for any other local organisations looking to raise funds for young people. I know when I started, way back, that sending just one person from the Group to Korea resulted in a great deal of work having been done, by the whole group to help raise funds for a long term member. The SIC at the time (not me) said "Never again" the draw on available funding for the group was huge and made a hole in the group's finances because essentially people gave to X going to Korea, instead of the Group. X never showed face at the Group once he returned... Bad investment.

    I am thinking, if I had 14 accepted then I guess that I would have presented more than 14. It would be VERY peculiar if not only 14 were accepted but if they were the ONLY 14 put forward by the Group that would be even more difficult to explain in a fair selection system.

    I think it is fair to say that Penistone Scouts do not go short on International opportunities. We have shared the ferry with their District...
    Ewan Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I cannot comment too much on Penistone Scouts but I do know that they have good resources and have a good reputation. But 14 from one single group is not even handed, nor is it particularly positive. I would expect a huge amount of fundraising to be done in this medium sized market town and it will almost certainly suck the funding pool dry for any other local organisations looking to raise funds for young people. I know when I started, way back, that sending just one person from the Group to Korea resulted in a great deal of work having been done, by the whole group to help raise funds for a long term member. The SIC at the time (not me) said "Never again" the draw on available funding for the group was huge and made a hole in the group's finances because essentially people gave to X going to Korea, instead of the Group. X never showed face at the Group once he returned... Bad investment.

    I am thinking, if I had 14 accepted then I guess that I would have presented more than 14. It would be VERY peculiar if not only 14 were accepted but if they were the ONLY 14 put forward by the Group that would be even more difficult to explain in a fair selection system.

    I think it is fair to say that Penistone Scouts do not go short on International opportunities. We have shared the ferry with their District...
    I raised a query about this on 1st FB Scout Group today. The response is quite polar as you would expect from this FB site !. One of the leaders from Penistone replied to my post and and ultimately it came down to a low uptake in places (just 133 candidates for 63 places), merit only (so the top 63 no matter how many from each District or Group) and a large number (26 ?) of applicants from Penistone Scouts. Result for them was 15 selected and a further 6 on the waiting list. They just need to raise £60K now in order to get them all to the USA !

  11. #68
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Bartlett View Post
    (just 133 candidates for 63 places)
    That seems a low turn out, for a county like South Yorkshire.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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    Senior Member David Kendall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Re the large number from one Group, that can happen if you have a truly objective selection, and it might well be that the Leaders and programme in that Group being exceptionally good produces exceptionally good Scouts.

    I know in MK one Group got 3, and I know enough about the selection to know this was not bias.
    Could be that the other Scout Troop/Explorer Unit Leaders did not bother/want to tell their young people about it so this was the only Group that had any applicants. It happens - I know Leaders that have said they will not pass the info on!
    In between roles/helping out where I can......

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    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Bartlett View Post
    hey just need to raise £60K now in order to get them all to the USA !
    Is that really the best use of £60k?

  14. #71
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kendall View Post
    Could be that the other Scout Troop/Explorer Unit Leaders did not bother/want to tell their young people about it so this was the only Group that had any applicants. It happens - I know Leaders that have said they will not pass the info on!
    Indeed. However, I passed on every Jamboree info pack, every International pack.

    Never had a taker for the Jamborees, not even anyone having a sniff. I once had eight go on an International to Mexico, and One got through on a selection to a Peru trip. I also had four go to Ghana with Ghana Outlook - based in Penistone and led by, er Penistone Scouters... Good guys with lots of experience.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    Is that really the best use of £60k?
    I suspect if they weren't going to the Jamboree they wouldn't be raising even half of that. I.e. they wouldn't be bothering with the fundraising if they weren't going to the Jamboree, so the money wouldn't be there to spend on something else.
    Ian Wilkins
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  17. #73
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    I suspect if they weren't going to the Jamboree they wouldn't be raising even half of that. I.e. they wouldn't be bothering with the fundraising if they weren't going to the Jamboree, so the money wouldn't be there to spend on something else.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    I am guessing that the aim will be to raise as much as they can, Some will pay up front, some will pay by SO. The Group may be prepared to put a considerable amount to each participant. However, it still represents a draw on available funding. I'm reasonably good at acquiring funds - more than once people who were not good at accessing funding complained to the DC about my continual funding successes. It was, in their minds, preventing them from getting funds. I explained that first they needed to contact the funder and get an application form...

    I am glad that we do not operate a couple of miles down the road in "Penistone Territory" because in this case, I suspect that there will be a draw on the public funding pool that will harm other projects. Can't wait to see what support they get from Tesco Bags for Help.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  18. #74
    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    I suspect if they weren't going to the Jamboree they wouldn't be raising even half of that. I.e. they wouldn't be bothering with the fundraising if they weren't going to the Jamboree, so the money wouldn't be there to spend on something else.
    I guess underlyomg my point is a thoughts that

    -the Jamboree may not be the best value for money
    -the time taken fundrais8ng could be used for other things

    Rich

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