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Thread: Modern Remembrance

  1. #31
    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon.md View Post
    Where we are there is a church service beforehand - then the local Scouts & Guides group up outside the church and parade with flags (led by the church people) to the war memorial (~300m). There is a short service with Christian elements at the war memorial and after that the Scouts and Guides group up again and parade a further 200m down the high street before being dismissed.

    As a group we choose not to attend the church service but individual members are welcome to go if they wish and meet up with the rest outside the church afterwards. This year we had about half the group attending which was not bad for us. So really it's up to everyone what they want to do. No one has complained we don't all attend the church service beforehand (in fact last time the vicar mentioned it it was to make sure we knew we were welcome but that no offence would be taken if we chose not to).
    Exactly what we do apart from we are dismissed at the memorial
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  2. #32
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    An E Scouter has respect for themselves and for others

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Ransley View Post
    An E Scouter has respect for themselves and for others
    Sorry.

    I try not to, but sometimes... (Especially on a Monday...)

    Our parade offers no get out. They march from the legion (where there is a plaque on the wall) down to the church, do the church bit, then march back up to the legion for a glass of coke and packet of smokey bacon crisps, and laterally - photos. Its been that way since I was a cub. (Back then, it was a glass bottle of coke and smokey bacon KP crisps. Adults on the parade got beer and pies.)

  5. #34
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    And you can do that. Just not make me or anyone else have to listen to it.
    if you wish to attend our remembrance day activities you are moire than welcome.

    there is a service. it is a christian service. it's held in a christian church. the scout group is sponsored by the church. there are scout groups that are not sponsored by faith bodies.

    there is an open invitation to attend. no one is forced to attend. we get about 70% turnout from cubs and scouts but very little from beavers. (the latter it seems worship the god of football.)

    if you attended you would hear religious words being spoken. i can't do much about that. you could wear ear defenders or you could excuse yourself, that is your choice, or you could just not listen. (listening does not equate to hearing.)

    Doing something religious is and must be a choice. What some on here seem to be doing is making it mandatory.
    i do not read that.

    you are welcome to attend our service or you could arrange one of your own which is non-religious in its entirety but that will not be in our church at 11 am on remembrance sunday morning.

    you are free to campaign or demonstrate outside our church on remembrance sunday against your view that religion has taken over remembrance sunday. i suspect the vast majority of people will not join you.

    we wear poppies because buying a poppy supports the good work of the RBL in caring for ex servicemen and women.

    we polish our shoes and iron our uniform because we simply wish to look smart on parade.

    we turn off our phones and be silent when asked to as a mark of respect.

    we lay wreaths and we remember because we want to.

    if you wish to do it all differently then you're free to do so. we will continue to do it our way.

    and if someone doesn't wish to do it our way then they're free to join you, or stay at home, or do it their way.

    That's doing it right!
    there is no right and wrong here.

    it is not wrong to do things traditionally.

    it is not wrong to remember.

    it is not wrong to do so in the ways with which you feel happy.

    TM
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  7. #35
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    if you wish to attend our remembrance day activities you are moire than welcome.

    there is a service. it is a christian service. it's held in a christian church. the scout group is sponsored by the church. there are scout groups that are not sponsored by faith bodies.

    there is an open invitation to attend. no one is forced to attend. we get about 70% turnout from cubs and scouts but very little from beavers. (the latter it seems worship the god of football.)

    if you attended you would hear religious words being spoken. i can't do much about that. you could wear ear defenders or you could excuse yourself, that is your choice, or you could just not listen. (listening does not equate to hearing.)



    i do not read that.

    you are welcome to attend our service or you could arrange one of your own which is non-religious in its entirety but that will not be in our church at 11 am on remembrance sunday morning.

    you are free to campaign or demonstrate outside our church on remembrance sunday against your view that religion has taken over remembrance sunday. i suspect the vast majority of people will not join you.

    we wear poppies because buying a poppy supports the good work of the RBL in caring for ex servicemen and women.

    we polish our shoes and iron our uniform because we simply wish to look smart on parade.

    we turn off our phones and be silent when asked to as a mark of respect.

    we lay wreaths and we remember because we want to.

    if you wish to do it all differently then you're free to do so. we will continue to do it our way.

    and if someone doesn't wish to do it our way then they're free to join you, or stay at home, or do it their way.

    there is no right and wrong here.

    it is not wrong to do things traditionally.

    it is not wrong to remember.

    it is not wrong to do so in the ways with which you feel happy.

    TM
    The people we are remembering are of all religions and none. They did not fight for religion, but for freedom - political beliefs (with a small p) that I am sure we all support.

    Remembrance is NOT a religious event. If a religious body wishes to hold a religious service AFTER the remembrance service, that is entirely different, but we as a community group that is open to people of all religious beliefs, should ensure that there is sufficient time and opportunity for any of our members who do not wish to participate in that religious element to leave. With no judgement on them for doing so.

    "Tradition" is not an acceptable argument.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


  8. #36
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    How many acts of "community" remembrance would take place if they did not involve the various local representatives of the religions?

    Remembrance Sunday seems to be much like St George's Day: many people have the view that it should/must be "different", but are not willing or able to define exactly what it should be, let alone organise it.
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  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The people we are remembering are of all religions and none. They did not fight for religion, but for freedom - political beliefs (with a small p) that I am sure we all support.

    Remembrance is NOT a religious event. If a religious body wishes to hold a religious service AFTER the remembrance service, that is entirely different, but we as a community group that is open to people of all religious beliefs, should ensure that there is sufficient time and opportunity for any of our members who do not wish to participate in that religious element to leave. With no judgement on them for doing so.

    "Tradition" is not an acceptable argument.
    This is a Christian country. You should learn to accept that. Try and actually live by the liberal views you hold.


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  12. #38
    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    This is a Christian country. You should learn to accept that. Try and actually live by the liberal views you hold.


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    Can you please explain more fully what you mean by that assertion.
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  13. #39
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The people we are remembering are of all religions and none.
    people can choose how to remember. many religious people will be remembering and praying for people of all religions and none not just their own.

    They did not fight for religion, but for freedom - political beliefs (with a small p) that I am sure we all support.
    ww1 started as the direct result of an assassination, which in turn brought to a head all the issues in play of imperialism, militarism, nationalism and the complex web of alliances that had formed and reformed over the 50 or so years preceding the war, among others. freedom?

    Remembrance is NOT a religious event.
    it can be whatever people choose it to be! we all remember in different ways. you are free to choose the way you wish to remember. no one is forcing anyone to remember in a particular way.

    If a religious body wishes to hold a religious service AFTER the remembrance service, that is entirely different, but we as a community group that is open to people of all religious beliefs, should ensure that there is sufficient time and opportunity for any of our members who do not wish to participate in that religious element to leave. With no judgement on them for doing so.
    no. you are now determining that a particular remembrance event must be non-religious; that is not 'freedom'. you have the choice to attend any remembrance event of your choice. you cannot simply turn up to a religious remembrance event, as you put it, and then complain about it being religious! it's your choice to attend or not. (likewise i can't simply turn up to a non-religious remembrance event and complain it's not religious.)

    those who are not religious in my group had the free choice to attend or not the religious service that we took part in. should we have gone to a non-religious service? maybe, but there was none locally on offer. no one who was non-religious was forced to attend or questioned why they did not. the same was applied to all those who were religious. should the service have been non-religious? eh, you want me to go into a CofE church for a remembrance service and demonstrate against it being religious? why was it religious? because everyone supporting it wanted it that way! that is freedom of choice. but what about those who were non-religious? they had the freedom to attend or do what they chose.

    there is no rule that says remembrance must always be non-religious in its entirety.

    "Tradition" is not an acceptable argument.
    it is to many.

    TM
    going...going...

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    This is a Christian country. You should learn to accept that. Try and actually live by the liberal views you hold.


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    The UK is largely a secular country with its roots in Christianity. I think that you should accept that.... And you are the first person that I have ever heard call Chris liberal.... which puts you waaay to the right on the spectrum. However, we kind of guessed that anyway
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  17. #41
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Just a few off the bat:

    At the last census 60% described themselves as Christian.

    Christmas and Easter are our main holidays in the year.

    The Patron Saint of England is St George.

    We have an established church which is headed by our Monarch and is Christian.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Just a few off the bat:

    At the last census 60% described themselves as Christian.

    Christmas and Easter are our main holidays in the year.

    The Patron Saint of England is St George.

    We have an established church which is headed by our Monarch and is Christian.






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    If we are talking about England than it is the case that the Church of England is the established church and has special legal status. I don't think that applies outside of England though (?).

    60% identified as Christian in the last census but that was down from over 70% from the previous.

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  20. #43
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    This is a Christian country. You should learn to accept that. Try and actually live by the liberal views you hold.


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    No, this is a country with Christian roots and an established Church. But is largely secular nowadays.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


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  22. #44
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    people can choose how to remember. many religious people will be remembering and praying for people of all religions and none not just their own.



    ww1 started as the direct result of an assassination, which in turn brought to a head all the issues in play of imperialism, militarism, nationalism and the complex web of alliances that had formed and reformed over the 50 or so years preceding the war, among others. freedom?



    it can be whatever people choose it to be! we all remember in different ways. you are free to choose the way you wish to remember. no one is forcing anyone to remember in a particular way.



    no. you are now determining that a particular remembrance event must be non-religious; that is not 'freedom'. you have the choice to attend any remembrance event of your choice. you cannot simply turn up to a religious remembrance event, as you put it, and then complain about it being religious! it's your choice to attend or not. (likewise i can't simply turn up to a non-religious remembrance event and complain it's not religious.)

    those who are not religious in my group had the free choice to attend or not the religious service that we took part in. should we have gone to a non-religious service? maybe, but there was none locally on offer. no one who was non-religious was forced to attend or questioned why they did not. the same was applied to all those who were religious. should the service have been non-religious? eh, you want me to go into a CofE church for a remembrance service and demonstrate against it being religious? why was it religious? because everyone supporting it wanted it that way! that is freedom of choice. but what about those who were non-religious? they had the freedom to attend or do what they chose.

    there is no rule that says remembrance must always be non-religious in its entirety.

    it is to many.

    TM
    As is often the case, you're 100% wrong, TM. Scouting is not a Christian organisation, so we should not be solely attending a religious remembrance service (with the only exception being sponsored groups). It is actions like this that which drag scouting backwards and make us retain the "white, christian, middle-class" reputation that prevents many of those who would benefit most from joining.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    The UK is largely a secular country with its roots in Christianity. I think that you should accept that.... And you are the first person that I have ever heard call Chris liberal.... which puts you waaay to the right on the spectrum. However, we kind of guessed that anyway
    I think both you and Rikki are using the American definition of liberal, which basically means left-wing, rather than the proper classical liberal definition which is most certainly what I am.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


  23. #45
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    As is often the case, you're 100% wrong, TM. Scouting is not a Christian organisation, so we should not be solely attending a religious remembrance service (with the only exception being sponsored groups). It is actions like this that which drag scouting backwards and make us retain the "white, christian, middle-class" reputation that prevents many of those who would benefit most from joining.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think both you and Rikki are using the American definition of liberal, which basically means left-wing, rather than the proper classical liberal definition which is most certainly what I am.
    No I meant liberal in the true definition of the word hence the small l.

    You are not showing any liberal traits in this thread at all. Hence my comment.


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