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Thread: Modern Remembrance

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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Modern Remembrance

    We had an interesting window on modern attitudes to Remembrance yesterday.

    We had large numbers turn out for the wreath-laying. When it became time to walk to the church for the Service, about half of the YP got in the cars and went home with their parents.

    It seems like the de-coupling of Remembrance from religion is becoming more established. Or maybe it's just me seeing it for the first time.

    It left me feeling quite hopeful.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    I find that selling poppies is more popular with the scouts than the religious service, so we tend to work the crowd throughout the outdoor service, stopping only for the minutes silence. Its a pragmatic form of both remembrance and service.

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Frankly, I'd do exactly what those YP did.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Frankly, I'd do exactly what those YP did.
    And me, I heard a great article on Radio 4 last week and one of the things mentioned was how as the 'established' church the CofE co-opted Remembrance and memorials (how many war memorials have a Christian cross - most, how many say 'to the Glory of God'? ) excluding those of other faiths and none. I think separating the Act of Remembrance from (any) religion is appropriate
    'Simba'

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Frankly, I'd do exactly what those YP did.
    which is what?

    do what half did and go home?

    or

    do what the other half did and go to the service?

    or

    would you rather not have the choice?

    TM
    going...going...

  7. #6
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsmum View Post
    And me, I heard a great article on Radio 4 last week and one of the things mentioned was how as the 'established' church the CofE co-opted Remembrance and memorials (how many war memorials have a Christian cross - most, how many say 'to the Glory of God'? ) excluding those of other faiths and none. I think separating the Act of Remembrance from (any) religion is appropriate
    That was my point about the 'modern' remembrance. Society has changed a lot in the 95 years or so since the Great War ended. Even in the late 1970's there was a common understanding of Church and Christianity (could anyone make a video like AC/DC's 'Let there be rock' now? Who would understand the references) Nobody is 'excluded' by a stone monument.

    Just to cheer up your Monday morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f2g4RMfhS0

    The people who stood around our monument in 1920 were different to us in terms of their approach to God, but we all believe that the sacrifice of our countrymen (and women) should be remembered.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    There has been a "decoupling" of religion and remembrance from 11th November 1918.

    Prior to WW1 the UK was a country where religion played a major part in the life of almost every family in the country. The sheer horror of WW1 and the losses, and more importantly the complete annihilation of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who left this world with no trace, created a loss of faith and the influence of religion has diminished ever since (though, I suspect that it is on the rise again for all the wrong reasons).

    We did not attend church. We had a small turn out 25%, but we don't force Navigators to attend and some probably went to different events. Of ours, two went to Church, the rest just came for the remembrance at the memorial - but we had English, Scots, Australian and American in our number so a global representation from Navigators.

    Rainbows and Brownies also attended in good numbers.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    which is what?

    do what half did and go home?

    or

    do what the other half did and go to the service?

    or

    would you rather not have the choice?

    TM
    Avoid the forced religiousification of Remembrance.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


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    Playing devils advocate...

    Given that the act of remembrance needs to be 'hosted' by some organisation or another, if you put to one side the notion that churches (or religious organisations anyway, at their upper levels) might see it as a recruitment tool - is 'the church' (of what ever flavour) not a viable vehicle to facilitate the remembering?

    I mean, I don't go either, for various reasons. But I know the church in our wee village does a lot of useful non-religious stuff - music, other remembrance services, and it only really skiffs high religiosity in its content. As adults, we have the capacity to make our own minds up, kids should be encouraged to do the same - so if we got to a situation where the church just wasn't always the default choice in these things, would not more people (young and old) go to the churchy bit?

    Its one of the things Britain does quite well - remembrance (shame about the present & future.) The church is probably still a part that gives it a sombre tinge - which is part of the day, is it not?

    Just playing devils advocate mind...

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Avoid the forced religiousification of Remembrance.
    so the half who attended the service were forced to do so?

    what should be done to the kid who shockingly stood at the memorial and said a prayer in silence?

    maybe we're trying too hard to be all things to all people? maybe it would be easier just to forget the whole thing?

    best message to tell the kids: forget it and let's move on!

    TM
    going...going...

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    Senior Member oneiros's Avatar
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    We insist that our Colour Party attend the church service (and I accompany them) but the rest of them go home after they've been dismissed by the parade marshal.

    ****** cold this year, and although it was generally dry, we did get caught in a couple of short showers which chilled us to the bone; uniform review can't come soon enough!

    Very pleased with my Scouts though; almost 100% attendance and all looked smart and were well behaved.

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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    We stopped taking the Scouts to the service a few years ago. Firstly the majority of the service in Church was a repeat of what had been said/done around the war memorial and secondly it was high church Christian which meant that about half of our Scouts who did not go to Church did not feel engaged and of the rest the Muslim or Jewish Scouts definitely did not feel welcome and those who normally went to a Christian service were bored with it being a repeat.
    We now join the parade to the war memorial (around 250 from the movement this year), take part in the 2 short service there, parade to the Church past the dignitaries on the saluting base and then fall out before the service. Works for most of the District.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Playing devils advocate...

    Given that the act of remembrance needs to be 'hosted' by some organisation or another, if you put to one side the notion that churches (or religious organisations anyway, at their upper levels) might see it as a recruitment tool - is 'the church' (of what ever flavour) not a viable vehicle to facilitate the remembering?

    I mean, I don't go either, for various reasons. But I know the church in our wee village does a lot of useful non-religious stuff - music, other remembrance services, and it only really skiffs high religiosity in its content. As adults, we have the capacity to make our own minds up, kids should be encouraged to do the same - so if we got to a situation where the church just wasn't always the default choice in these things, would not more people (young and old) go to the churchy bit?

    Its one of the things Britain does quite well - remembrance (shame about the present & future.) The church is probably still a part that gives it a sombre tinge - which is part of the day, is it not?

    Just playing devils advocate mind...

    I think there's a big difference between hosting a community event and making it a religious service.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


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    I think in a small village, going to the parade but not the church would be 'noted'. I doubt we'd get away with out considerable opprobrium from some quarter. (But notably not from the minister, who's son is one of my assistant leaders at Explorers...)

    Under the circumstances (and we chat about this with the kids - well I do - the old SL was/is a traditionalist), none of them will melt if they go into the church, and they can always ignore the religious bits...

    That's our compromise.


    * we have no other denominations at the moment and wouldn't force the issue with them if we did.

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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Playing devils advocate...

    Given that the act of remembrance needs to be 'hosted' by some organisation or another, if you put to one side the notion that churches (or religious organisations anyway, at their upper levels) might see it as a recruitment tool - is 'the church' (of what ever flavour) not a viable vehicle to facilitate the remembering?

    I mean, I don't go either, for various reasons. But I know the church in our wee village does a lot of useful non-religious stuff - music, other remembrance services, and it only really skiffs high religiosity in its content. As adults, we have the capacity to make our own minds up, kids should be encouraged to do the same - so if we got to a situation where the church just wasn't always the default choice in these things, would not more people (young and old) go to the churchy bit?

    Its one of the things Britain does quite well - remembrance (shame about the present & future.) The church is probably still a part that gives it a sombre tinge - which is part of the day, is it not?

    Just playing devils advocate mind...
    The rural Church of England is way, WAY beyond seeing anything as a recruiting tool. They're just managing the decline.

    And your definition of 'skiff' is different to mine. Every day's a school day.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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