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Thread: The cult of remembrance

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BREWBOY View Post
    I think its more that the information has been lost or forgotten,maybe some families slipped through but not many young men stayed at home. 3 out of 30 is 10% I'm sure more than 10% of familes were effected by war
    To be really tedious about this, of my four great grandfathers, two were too old, one was too dead and one served from 1914 to 1918. Their sons were too young to serve.

    One grandfather served in the second big mistake, the other was too shortsighted to be any use.

    My father fought in Cyprus in the fifties.

    I was a Cold War warrrior. Please God my kids donít have to fight, but I am not optimistic.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  2. #32
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    The vast majority of my troop are second or third generation immigrants. There is a high chance that they do not have relatives that were in WWI or WWII. But I get they could find someone who served in something.


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  3. #33
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    I donít think it matters a bit if there is a direct link between the person today remembering and someone that sacrificed in either world war.

    Regardless of where you come from if you are enjoying the freedoms this country gives you then I think a moments reflection to remember the sacrifices that those have for us all to have these freedoms would not go amiss.

    Those that do not think it is worth two minutes then I hope karma exists.


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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by claire.shadbolt View Post
    The vast majority of my troop are second or third generation immigrants. There is a high chance that they do not have relatives that were in WWI or WWII. But I get they could find someone who served in something.
    It would depend on what country the familie originally came from all the commonwealth was involved in both world wars, Eastern Eurpoean countries were devided between the allues and the Axis powers.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    On a slightly different take... would things be that much different today? Would there be a rush to sign up?

    When Argentina invaded the Falklands and Maggie made it clear that she wasn't entertaining the idea, there were queues at the recruiting offices around the UK as young men volunteered to "fight for their country". A couple of times we have had visitors, one a serving member of the REME, and he was inundated with boys asking about what it was like, did you get to shoot guns etc..

    When we had Waterloo re-enacters visit, they were overwhelmed by the interest in the guns, the bayonets, the kit and the uniform. They even got the whole troop parading properly...

    Sadly, thre is an element in human nature that does lead us towards conflict and despite the gore and the horror, some will always see glory in war. It is, I think, encumbent upon us to ensure that our young people are fully aware of the consequences where we can.
    Ewan Scott

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  6. #36
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    On a slightly different take... would things be that much different today? Would there be a rush to sign up?

    When Argentina invaded the Falklands and Maggie made it clear that she wasn't entertaining the idea, there were queues at the recruiting offices around the UK as young men volunteered to "fight for their country". A couple of times we have had visitors, one a serving member of the REME, and he was inundated with boys asking about what it was like, did you get to shoot guns etc..

    When we had Waterloo re-enacters visit, they were overwhelmed by the interest in the guns, the bayonets, the kit and the uniform. They even got the whole troop parading properly...

    Sadly, thre is an element in human nature that does lead us towards conflict and despite the gore and the horror, some will always see glory in war. It is, I think, encumbent upon us to ensure that our young people are fully aware of the consequences where we can.
    I would not say human nature. I think it is a male thing rather than a human wide thing.

    I heard a story once on tv hat a lesbian couple had adopted kids and were very feminist and he was the only boy with two mothers and two other sisters. They never had anything like toy guns or allowed him to watch those sort of movies.

    However he would make guns out of sticks in the garden and play, quite innocently.

    There is most certainly something in men that is deep inside us to fight.

    The glorification of war in movies no doubt does not help. Particularly Hollywood movies.


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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I am afraid that it is true. There were some communities and families that were badly impacted, but there were those who took no part. On my father's side, no-one took part in any conflict since the Battle of New Orleans, until my father did National Service in Korea. On my mother's side she lost two Uncles on the Somme, and a third later died of his wounds.

    However, if you ask many young people today, and they bother to ask, few will be able to report that they had connections to WW1. When only three out of 30 came back with connections, I thought that they were being lazy and not bothering to ask, but when I spoke to parents, they all said that their familiy had no-one who served in WW1 or WW2.
    It possibly doesn't help that people who were there and survived did not want to talk about it. Certainly the case with many in WW1 & WW2.

    Both my grandads were involved in WW1 but neither would talk about it often changing the subject. I am not sure about other relatives but certainly my dads uncles brothers were too young not sure about my mums uncles but did meet a few not sure any were killed.

    My dad was too young for WW2 and only one uncle on my mums side was old enough and he never speaks of it so don't know what involvement he had.

    The only stories that I ever got from family was about carrying gas masks and getting up in middle of the night to go to the shelters.

    On the other hand, the village where I was brought up had many names where the surname was the same on the cenotaph so a few lost multiple members of family.

  8. #38
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    It possibly doesn't help that people who were there and survived did not want to talk about it.
    Yup. Well, they generally talk about the fun stuff, my grandad was a RAF engineer in WWII, and hence deaf as a post ("yeah, we would stand by the engines and listen to them make sure they were running right"). Worked on Sutherland (I think) flying boats. Only once did he talk about how he and his crew got through a storm by using sailing techniques to go into the wind while his mates plane broke up and all aboard were lost. Rest of the time it was all "Karachi, that was a mad place!" never did find out why. He reckoned he was the first crew (and therefore the first people I guess) to fly to Australia from europe. Actually flew across India landing on rivers as they went, not round it, took them about 3 or 4 weeks. What larks!

    Then my dad was in national service in Malay. He'll tell of the times they got chucked out of a bar for feeding beer to the caged orangutan until it performed its party piece shower onto the restaurant diners below. Or the fashion for ties with malay script on that stopped when they found out what it actually said. Trips to snake temples. And so on. The jungle patrols? The death I know he saw*? Not so much.

    * Has a photo album I looked through as a teenager, it's all fun and games and boys abroad with the odd jungle patrol, until the last couple of pages, which he probably didn't intend for me to see. Glad they were black and white.

    Not sure either of them ever went to Remembrance events.
    Last edited by ianw; 15-11-2017 at 09:27 AM.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    On a slightly different take... would things be that much different today? Would there be a rush to sign up?

    When Argentina invaded the Falklands and Maggie made it clear that she wasn't entertaining the idea, there were queues at the recruiting offices around the UK as young men volunteered to "fight for their country". A couple of times we have had visitors, one a serving member of the REME, and he was inundated with boys asking about what it was like, did you get to shoot guns etc..
    The demographics in the future will make it unlikely. Who is going to queue up for the chance to fight for "the country in which I am now living"?

    I don't think there is going to be a 'proper' European war again (by which I mean tanks rolling across the North German plain). The Germans aren't up for it any more, and even the Russians have realised that there are better ways of getting what you want.

    They aren't going for the Falklands any time soon (see here:http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/0...and-our-pants/).

    We won't be invading anywhere on the say-so of our politicians, after the Iraq war. When 10% of the available manpower is Muslim (i.e. in 2025), we're not likely to be intervening in any wars in Muslim areas, although Cameron's failure to get support for intervention in Syria pointed the way.

    We'll watch Russia:China, India:Pakistan, Saudi:Iran or Korea round II on the TV.

    I am convinced there will be some Yugoslavia-style local fighting, but as weapons are hard to get in Europe, and people do not have their National Service training to fall back on, this will be even more chaotic than Bosnia was.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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  11. #40
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    The demographics in the future will make it unlikely. Who is going to queue up for the chance to fight for "the country in which I am now living"?

    I don't think there is going to be a 'proper' European war again (by which I mean tanks rolling across the North German plain). The Germans aren't up for it any more, and even the Russians have realised that there are better ways of getting what you want.

    They aren't going for the Falklands any time soon (see here:http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/0...and-our-pants/).

    We won't be invading anywhere on the say-so of our politicians, after the Iraq war. When 10% of the available manpower is Muslim (i.e. in 2025), we're not likely to be intervening in any wars in Muslim areas, although Cameron's failure to get support for intervention in Syria pointed the way.

    We'll watch Russia:China, India:Pakistan, Saudi:Iran or Korea round II on the TV.

    I am convinced there will be some Yugoslavia-style local fighting, but as weapons are hard to get in Europe, and people do not have their National Service training to fall back on, this will be even more chaotic than Bosnia was.
    Sadly, I think that we will get drawn in by this false alliance we have with the USA. I agree, I doubt that there wil be any large scale conflict in Europe, though the Poles do fear the actions of the Russians. When I was in Croatia there was an air museum with a whole line of MiGs mothballed, and there was a news item abouth Serbia re-arming and Croatia following suite in preparation for a conflict with Serbia...

    By the way, weapons are not hard to get in "Eastern" Europe I know of a Pole who has his own tank, live firing - he and his mates have been officially recognised as the local militia by the Polish Government ( as have other such groups).
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  12. #41
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    Talking about families/people with links to fighting is (I think) a little misleading. If you look back far or deeply enough, we probably all have links with everything.

    It doesn't matter who had links, what matters is who remembers - and who remembers what and how, boils down to marketing. All wars are marketed, every single one - because the people that start them, need other people to fight them.

    And so it is with remembrance, its not a matter of shining shoes or who has links with who - like everything else these days, its down to what can be sold. (Which as we know, is sad.) Thinking about it, there are already plenty examples of the day being monetised (novelty items, pizzas, poppies on busses etc), and that's before we even touch upon how its pulled from pillar to post by all the manifold vested interests that exist.

    I think the real elephant in the room has two faces - the first one is that the last truly righteous war was a long time ago and its meaning is now enshrined not in memories, but in film drama - so for generations going forward, its going to be hopelessly skewed. The other face is, people are a lot more cynical these days - mass media and the proliferation of 'information' from corners we didn't even know exist - in short, no one trusts the people who are supposed to be in charge and there they are, standing with the poppies at the cenotaph looking all grave while they still authorise or allow the most heinous things to be done in our name.

    That all gets conflated with what remembrance is supposed to be about - and each year that passes, it is damaged irreparably because of it.

  13. #42
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    We always take our cubs to the local war memorial a week or two before remembrance sunday. We have a quite 20 mins looking at the surnames of the men lost in both the wars. many of the names of the fallen are their great great uncles, or their grandfathers cousins etc. We have a minute of silence, a salute and leave quietly. The cubs get more reflection from this than the faceless, soulless, prim one up man ship at the county event. Next year we are planning on doing our own.

  14. #43
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    Our remembrance service at the memorial is terrible - badly badly organised, not clear what was going on, silence started randomly about 5 minutes early, and sound system didn't work, again.

    Nonetheless I've attended the last 26 consecutive parades (since I started beavers) and I don't intend to stop now. Our turnout was good and it's a good opportunity for all 4 sections to meet each other and get the odd group photo, plus see strength in numbers with all the other scouts, guides, cadets, veterans, etc etc. I'm not even old enough to remember the Falklands let alone WW2, but I still think it's important that theres an event nationally which recognises it, the notion of people doing the same thing, at the same time, for the same reason.

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