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Thread: Encouraging Parents to use Online Payments and MY.SCOUT

  1. #46
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Ah, registered or not you are a charity in the eyes of the law. ( forget about the excepted thing, it is a bit of a red herring in this regard).
    The excepted thing means excepted from having to register as a charity with the charity commission in no way does it mean that excepted charities aren't charities or that they should not be run to pretty much the same standards as charities which do have to register with the charity commission which is what compliance with POR should ensure.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Neil Williams (29-11-2017)

  3. #47
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    The excepted thing means excepted from having to register as a charity with the charity commission in no way does it mean that excepted charities aren't charities or that they should not be run to pretty much the same standards as charities which do have to register with the charity commission which is what compliance with POR should ensure.
    As I said, a bit of a red herring - the reality is that we all have to operate in exactly the same way as any other charity. CC3 is a very good guide to duties and responsibilities. Much clearer than POR.
    Ewan Scott

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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    As I said, a bit of a red herring - the reality is that we all have to operate in exactly the same way as any other charity. CC3 is a very good guide to duties and responsibilities. Much clearer than POR.
    Though remember that within Scouting we have to comply with the stricter of charity law and POR, so POR can't just be ignored.

    (You of course lack that constraint )

  5. #49
    Senior Member Mallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    But is a requirement in TSA as per POR
    POR is also NOT Law.

    He who receives a good turn should never forget it; he who does one should never remember it.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Though remember that within Scouting we have to comply with the stricter of charity law and POR, so POR can't just be ignored.

    (You of course lack that constraint )

    You have to comply with POR, but POR is as clear as mud. The reality is that CC3 is a better guide than POR has ever been. If you comply with the requirements of the CC then you will invariably comply with TSA rules.

    Not read POR in detail recently but I cannot think of any point in POR that relates to trustee management of the group that is not already covered by the Law. I'll warrant that most GSLs and many treasurers have not read either. ( Most on here probably have, but in the wider scheme of things those who are "just helping out with scouts" will not have. I never met anyone who had - not even a DC....
    Ewan Scott

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  7. #51
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    The 2 signatory thing, probably? It is not a legal requirement (just good advice), but it is an absolute requirement of POR.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    POR is also NOT Law.
    It is a Rule you must comply with if you wish to be a member of TSA.

    You have the option not to comply, but only if you wish not to be a member of TSA.

  8. #52
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    The 2 signatory thing, probably? It is not a legal requirement (just good advice), but it is an absolute requirement of POR.
    Actually, it is a requirement, although it is set out in such a way that failure to comply puts the trustee at risk, rather than mandating that it must be done. It is a rather peculiar way of saying that all risk must be managed and that no-one can make a payment to themselves, but it is there in Charity Finances: Trustee Essentials. My guess is that it is worded as it is to allow alternative controls to be put in place - Our Navigator constitution, provided by the CC, sets out how funds can be spent - indeed it is proscriptive in how a purchase can be made in that written consent is required and the amount stated in the written consent cannot be exceeded, that written consent has to come from the Trustees.

    All TSA Scouts must comply with POR but POR is not the law of the land and when the brown smelly stuff really hits the fan it is the Law of the land that prevails. POR is like a disclaimer - it sets out expectations but if things go wrong, the courts make the final decision. If I were coming to Scouts as a newbie, to take on a Trustee role, I would primarily go with the Charity Commission, and then POR. The problem with POR is that whilst it is a set of Byelaws, it is so poorly written and so widely interpreted that it has become the source of myths about how a Group should be run.
    Ewan Scott

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  9. #53
    Senior Member recneps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Actually, it is a requirement, although it is set out in such a way that failure to comply puts the trustee at risk, rather than mandating that it must be done. It is a rather peculiar way of saying that all risk must be managed and that no-one can make a payment to themselves, but it is there in Charity Finances: Trustee Essentials. My guess is that it is worded as it is to allow alternative controls to be put in place - Our Navigator constitution, provided by the CC, sets out how funds can be spent - indeed it is proscriptive in how a purchase can be made in that written consent is required and the amount stated in the written consent cannot be exceeded, that written consent has to come from the Trustees.

    All TSA Scouts must comply with POR but POR is not the law of the land and when the brown smelly stuff really hits the fan it is the Law of the land that prevails. POR is like a disclaimer - it sets out expectations but if things go wrong, the courts make the final decision. If I were coming to Scouts as a newbie, to take on a Trustee role, I would primarily go with the Charity Commission, and then POR. The problem with POR is that whilst it is a set of Byelaws, it is so poorly written and so widely interpreted that it has become the source of myths about how a Group should be run.
    Much like "should" in POR... i think it would be unwise to go against recommendations in CC3
    Dan Spencer

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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    All TSA Scouts must comply with POR but POR is not the law of the land and when the brown smelly stuff really hits the fan it is the Law of the land that prevails. POR is like a disclaimer - it sets out expectations but if things go wrong, the courts make the final decision. If I were coming to Scouts as a newbie, to take on a Trustee role, I would primarily go with the Charity Commission, and then POR. The problem with POR is that whilst it is a set of Byelaws, it is so poorly written and so widely interpreted that it has become the source of myths about how a Group should be run.
    Indeed, hence my point that you have to comply with the *stricter* of the two.

  11. #55
    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallah View Post
    POR is also NOT Law.
    I didn't say it was

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  12. #56
    Senior Member roger-uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medic2 View Post
    Thanks for the replies. Before I took over cash and cheques were the way to go because there HSBCs in our small village and the neighbouring village so it was easy to pay in but they have both closed and so the nearest bank is in the middle of a busy town where its a nightmare to park and then to a long walk to get through. I don't mind doing it occasionally but when you get activates money in drips and drabs it becomes a pain in the backside.

    I'm accepting BACS payments but they have to contact us for the account number and sort code, this allows me to control (to an extent) the reference they use when paying, for example if Billy Jones from Cubs is paying their subs I'd reply back with the account details and ask them to use ref: 'C-BillyJ' or something to that effect, makes tracking down the payments easier anyway




    To get around this problem I issued our three sections with a float of 50 cash, they give me the receipts at the end of each month and I pay the cash back to them. If there is a large purchase to be made I'll pay with the debit card I have on the account. What I would like is the leaders to use a credit card of their own and I pay the bill each month so I don't have to go to the bank and get exact cash out at the counter.

    I'm drafting a letter to parents which will be sent home with every child, also posted on our facebook page and emailed out so I can make damn sure everyone gets it.
    How do you manage a debit card with a dual signatory account
    Roger Woods
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    1st Sawley (All Saints) , Long Eaton

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    Had a look at online payments with OSM, we charge 35 per term out of that with fees OSM takes roughly 1 away form us. so will be using it only as a last gasp for reluctant payers.
    as a Scout Troop we could be loosing 100 a year, at least 400 down as a Group (beavers/Cubs/Scouts) if we were using OSM online payments

  14. #58
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    Had a look at online payments with OSM, we charge 35 per term out of that with fees OSM takes roughly 1 away form us. so will be using it only as a last gasp for reluctant payers.
    as a Scout Troop we could be loosing 100 a year, at least 400 down as a Group (beavers/Cubs/Scouts) if we were using OSM online payments
    We are paying a lot of money to OSM. But the uptick in payments and gift aid means it has pad for itself.

    Also. Subs for over 150 kids takes minutes per year.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

  15. #59
    Escouts Team Bloory's Avatar
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    What Chris said... we more than made up for the cost by all bar one family using it. And, increas in subs - took a few minutes to email parents.. Job done.
    Jonathan Bloor
    Escouts Team
    Group Scout Leader - 4th Ashby de la Zouch

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