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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Do they offend you, or do they just annoy you?

    Or is it pointless pedantry that really gets under your skin?
    Annoyance is just a factor of offence, the two things are the same. Its how you react that matters - I think anyway. Personally, as in things said about me, I never get offended. There are certain things I feel strongly about, but opposing arguments aren't offensive to me, they're just wrong- heh, joking! I try to empathise with their point of view, (even if they're wrong...) Oh, there I go again...

    If someone was eating an apple in close proximity (crunch crunch crunch), I wouldn't kill them or anything, at least not right away... I'd just move away then maybe use the experience to make people laugh, they know I don't like it, so when it happens, it amuses them.

    And I couldn't possibly comment on pedantry, because I may under certain circumstances, be one. I would hate to not have any self awareness... That would annoy me, but then, I wouldn't know would I... Ha ha!

    I think any form of pedantry is probably pointless (was that a tautology above?), so there-for annoying. If the details are important, then its not pedantry, its good sense. But then, I suppose, often that can be a subjective thing...

    Or something.


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  3. #77
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    So we wont need to declare male and female YP on the census?

    Or think about the Vision 2018 objective of 4 girls in every section?

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  5. #78
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammon Baby View Post
    So we wont need to declare male and female YP on the census?
    Obviously, as each group has an average of 60 YP (18 Beavers, 24 Cubs, 18 Scouts), you'll have to come together in collections of four groups, and find one non-binary to share between you. God forbid you treat each person as an individual. Wait till HQ gets fully into intersectionality, and you have to provide stats regarding each member's gender, skin colour, orientation and religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gammon Baby View Post
    Or think about the Vision 2018 objective of 4 girls in every section?
    Isn't it time that girls had their own sections? If having segregated groups is the only way to get religious people into scouting, it should be pretty clear that girls-only groups are the way forward WRT getting more girls into scouting.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  6. #79
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Obviously, as each group has an average of 60 YP (18 Beavers, 24 Cubs, 18 Scouts), you'll have to come together in collections of four groups, and find one non-binary to share between you. God forbid you treat each person as an individual. Wait till HQ gets fully into intersectionality, and you have to provide stats regarding each member's gender, skin colour, orientation and religion.




    Isn't it time that girls had their own sections? If having segregated groups is the only way to get religious people into scouting, it should be pretty clear that girls-only groups are the way forward WRT getting more girls into scouting.
    I've always found that quota target for girls a bit strange, I've never worked out how we are supposed to attract them specifically without turning ourselves int the Brownies. I've only ever had six girls (sorry YP that are not boys, or is that six that are the opposite gender to the other 18- gosh this confusing) and they all were from the same class of the local primary and close friends, they always come into cubs in clusters, whereas the boys (sorry the 18 who are the opposite gender to the six!) will come even if they don't know anyone else. I think that's the main difference in the genders and why we don't get as many people of the other gender in the younger sections (They do seem to be lots more in Scouts). I can't write any more with out mentioning the 'B' or 'G' words.

  7. #80
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    I've always found that quota target for girls a bit strange, I've never worked out how we are supposed to attract them specifically without turning ourselves int the Brownies. I've only ever had six girls (sorry YP that are not boys, or is that six that are the opposite gender to the other 18- gosh this confusing) and they all were from the same class of the local primary and close friends, they always come into cubs in clusters, whereas the boys (sorry the 18 who are the opposite gender to the six!) will come even if they don't know anyone else. I think that's the main difference in the genders and why we don't get as many people of the other gender in the younger sections (They do seem to be lots more in Scouts). I can't write any more with out mentioning the 'B' or 'G' words.
    You do it by changing the language of your material early... you say 'scouts' not 'boys', you say 'he or she' or 'they' even when you are all boy.

    you are explicit that you welcome girls and boys (and i put girls first whenever i referred to them in publicity: 'girls and boys' not 'boys and girls'.

    You make sure that you assume that younger sisters will join you just as you do with younger brothers... "ooo you'll be a beaver soon"... "you'll love being a scout" etc...

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  9. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    You do it by changing the language of your material early... you say 'scouts' not 'boys', you say 'he or she' or 'they' even when you are all boy.

    you are explicit that you welcome girls and boys (and i put girls first whenever i referred to them in publicity: 'girls and boys' not 'boys and girls'.

    You make sure that you assume that younger sisters will join you just as you do with younger brothers... "ooo you'll be a beaver soon"... "you'll love being a scout" etc...
    This. Still having the “oh can girls join scouts?” Conversation is annoying. But if you have it loud, people get the idea!


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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    To bring things back to the original point....

    I am delighted to announce that following my explanation to him that yet another Mail* story was cobblers (ie that scouts had "banned" the words boy and girl) my dad has finally decided to stop reading that poisonous rag and will move to the Telegraph instead. Huzzah!

    Still working on my mum!

    *when he was in hospital a few years back following a heart attack he used to get me to buy it for him. I gave serious consideration to taking a copy of Razzle, or similar, off the top shelf, taking it to the counter with a copy of the Mail inside, opening it up and saying "and a copy of this". I made do with a thorough washing of my hands afterwards instead.

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  12. #83
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    To bring things back to the original point....

    I am delighted to announce that following my explanation to him that yet another Mail* story was cobblers (ie that scouts had "banned" the words boy and girl) my dad has finally decided to stop reading that poisonous rag and will move to the Telegraph instead. Huzzah!
    Often the same garbage but better written...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  13. #84
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    You do it by changing the language of your material early... you say 'scouts' not 'boys', you say 'he or she' or 'they' even when you are all boy.

    you are explicit that you welcome girls and boys (and i put girls first whenever i referred to them in publicity: 'girls and boys' not 'boys and girls'.

    You make sure that you assume that younger sisters will join you just as you do with younger brothers... "ooo you'll be a beaver soon"... "you'll love being a scout" etc...
    Isn't this why TSA are considering bringing in Squirrels - they want to recruit the girls before the Rainbows have got them when they turn 5?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    Isn't this why TSA are considering bringing in Squirrels - they want to recruit the girls before the Rainbows have got them when they turn 5?
    Probably. I do wish Gilwell would pack in trying to compete with Girlguiding, though, there's really no need, there are enough YP for both and they appeal to different types of people.

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  16. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    Isn't this why TSA are considering bringing in Squirrels - they want to recruit the girls before the Rainbows have got them when they turn 5?
    When you are a corporate manager, there are only two ways to demonstrate that you are succeeding (and therefore worthy of your salary). One is to grow the market. Our population is rising, so the SA managers have some chance to increase the numbers of Scouts as a whole.

    The other is to increase market share. The SA does this by getting to YP before other organisations (Squirrels) and by appealing to those who wouldn't ordinarily think of Scouting. The British population is predicted, by a highly reputable organisation, to be 16.7% Muslim by 2050 (here:http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/e...im-population/) . Where would YOU look, if your job depended on increasing the numbers?
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  17. #87
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Where would YOU look, if your job depended on increasing the numbers?
    I'd recruit adults rather than kids as there is no shortage of kids. But then I'm not a TSA manager.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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  19. #88
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    It is not about showing a lack of respect. It is about not forcing the 99.9% to change for the 0.01%.


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    What exactly are the "99.9%" being asked to change?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I spend much of my time as an adult working with young people doing my utmost to ignore the obvious differences between the male and the females in the group. I treat them , as far as I am possibly able, equally and with due respect. I do NOT differentiate on the basis of gender. Though, I do find that sometimes the young people can and do migrate into peer/ gender groupings of their own volition.

    If I have someone who is transgender, if I make differentiations for them, then I am then saying that they are not all equals. So people, this is where we are. I am not going to call for guys and gals and all points in between because to do so would be to differentiate.

    Now, over the years I have had several young people come out as homosexual, and in almost every case they have been offended by the fact that no-one gave a flying fig. They had expected some grand slap on the back, or some reaction other than, okay, that's fine, now, how do we build a bridge across that stream... That was the response from not just ur leaders but also from almost every single Scout or Explorer. In reality, everyone knew before they came out and they just wanted to carry on being mates - there was for everyone else, no big deal. And that is how it should be.

    Okay, howls from the self righteous about how big a deal it is for the individual coming out and how we should take this into consideration and support them by, well, I'm not quite sure how we support someone other than accepting them for what they are - which after all is surely what they actually want. Hey, it is okay, you are still the same Smithy today as you were yesterday. You want put up on a pedastal?

    Now, we had two brothers, one was homosexual, and he told us but swore us to secrecy in case his parents found out. The other was a homophobe. Every week there would be rows between them and the homphobe was a big burly lad, built like an ox. His brother was a tall skinny geek who wouldn't/ couldn't hurt a fly. Explorers would round on the ox-like brother for his homophobia they just would not have it in their time. I'm not sure how much more supportive we could have been.
    To be fair, coming out is a major thing - and quite possibly the first time they have ever been truly open or able to be themselves. So whilst it will always be a relief that no-one has an issue with it (EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.), not getting a reaction of any sort the first time can be rather a let down. Particularly if you think that they are likely to be have worrying about it a lot and building it up in their own head...

    Whilst what you are doing is right, it doesn't mean it's what they want!
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
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  20. #89
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    What exactly are the "99.9%" being asked to change?
    I think they are being expected by some quarters to either stop referring to boys and girls and start referring to boys, girls and all points in between and either side...to not do so apparently alienates the 0.1%... or to be more correct the <0.025% of the transgender population who might be members of TSA.

    I remain steadfastly of the opinion that boys have the plumbing on the outside, girls have plumbing on the inside. I offer both (and anywhere in between or either side) as wide a range of activities as I can and I do so as equally and fairly as those participating will allow. I will use whichever generic term enters my head - boys, ladies, people, Navigators, you lot, - I have even tried the Italian regazzi ( which covers both genders in one fell swoop but will offend the sensitive by being the masculine plural applied to all). Tonight we will have a discussion about the use of the Murray Goldberg terminology for young people. We will have a vote. I will lay odds on a unanimous agreement that the collective term for young people should be Morons. (There is evidence to support this - when we played whackem with pool noodles, some thought it was too rough, some thought it was too soft. So when i offered to let them play with a baseball bat, there was unanimous agreement that it would be fun. I think that my money placed on them voting to be called Morons is pretty safe.)
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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  22. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I think they are being expected by some quarters to either stop referring to boys and girls and start referring to boys, girls and all points in between and either side...to not do so apparently alienates the 0.1%... or to be more correct the <0.025% of the transgender population who might be members of TSA.

    I remain steadfastly of the opinion that boys have the plumbing on the outside, girls have plumbing on the inside. I offer both (and anywhere in between or either side) as wide a range of activities as I can and I do so as equally and fairly as those participating will allow. I will use whichever generic term enters my head - boys, ladies, people, Navigators, you lot, - I have even tried the Italian regazzi ( which covers both genders in one fell swoop but will offend the sensitive by being the masculine plural applied to all). Tonight we will have a discussion about the use of the Murray Goldberg terminology for young people. We will have a vote. I will lay odds on a unanimous agreement that the collective term for young people should be Morons. (There is evidence to support this - when we played whackem with pool noodles, some thought it was too rough, some thought it was too soft. So when i offered to let them play with a baseball bat, there was unanimous agreement that it would be fun. I think that my money placed on them voting to be called Morons is pretty safe.)
    I totally disagree. Males have plumbing on the outside on females have plumbing on the inside (to use your terminology). This does not necessarily translate to boys and girls/men and women.

    All anyone is being asked to do is to consider the phrases they are using and choose gender-neutral versions if possible and appropriate - eg. using "they" or "Scouts". I don't this is hard, difficult, or an issue that should concern anyone.

    Essentially, it's about politeness and being considerate of other people.
    Chris Hawes, CSL (Akela) and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group (on sabbatical); District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.


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