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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    So, nevynxxx, by treating everyone equitably, I am doing the right thing, but because others don't, I am in the wrong? That is some ****ing screwed up logic. (I am not angry with either you or Chris - I am angry with the crass stupidity - to my mind -of this whole nonsense.)
    No. If that was what I meant it would be stupid.

    You are doing the right thing by treating everyone equitably. I'm 100% sure from your posts that if one of your Navs came up and said "Bushy, can you refer to me as Zhe in third person." You would honour that (I'm not sure I could come up with a less contrived example, either).

    The trouble is the arguments you are using to back up your stance are the same as those used to say post-transition trans women should have to use male toilets. I'm arguing with the argument that Boys have external plumbing and girls have internal, because, It's not true, and you keep repeating it. I agree that 99% of the time it's irrelevant. It *should* be irrelevant to how we treat our YP, because we should start from the basis of respect you obviously do. But the whole point is that there are exceptions, and the arguments you use are the same ones people use to run roughshod over people's mental health.

    Did you read the link I posted above that shows you can pick out Trans people from brain scans..... I find that puts the argument in a very, very different light.

  2. #107
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    No. If that was what I meant it would be stupid.

    You are doing the right thing by treating everyone equitably. I'm 100% sure from your posts that if one of your Navs came up and said "Bushy, can you refer to me as Zhe in third person." You would honour that (I'm not sure I could come up with a less contrived example, either).

    The trouble is the arguments you are using to back up your stance are the same as those used to say post-transition trans women should have to use male toilets. I'm arguing with the argument that Boys have external plumbing and girls have internal, because, It's not true, and you keep repeating it. I agree that 99% of the time it's irrelevant. It *should* be irrelevant to how we treat our YP, because we should start from the basis of respect you obviously do. But the whole point is that there are exceptions, and the arguments you use are the same ones people use to run roughshod over people's mental health.

    Did you read the link I posted above that shows you can pick out Trans people from brain scans..... I find that puts the argument in a very, very different light.
    This is where the definitions let us down. We can have the physical definitions, i.e., which plumbing is present where, but basically we're talking about the difference between which box an honest observer would put you in, and which box you feel or believe you belong in, or if you reject the concept of boxes altogether.

    If the physical brain says one thing but the plumbing says another, then that's going to be difficult for the individual concerned.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    If the physical brain says one thing but the plumbing says another, then that's going to be difficult for the individual concerned.
    Absolutely! Which could go some way to explaining the massive mental health problems in the trans community. It would appear that it is the case though, certainly those studies point that way.

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  5. #109
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    No. If that was what I meant it would be stupid.

    You are doing the right thing by treating everyone equitably. I'm 100% sure from your posts that if one of your Navs came up and said "Bushy, can you refer to me as Zhe in third person." You would honour that (I'm not sure I could come up with a less contrived example, either).

    The trouble is the arguments you are using to back up your stance are the same as those used to say post-transition trans women should have to use male toilets. I'm arguing with the argument that Boys have external plumbing and girls have internal, because, It's not true, and you keep repeating it. I agree that 99% of the time it's irrelevant. It *should* be irrelevant to how we treat our YP, because we should start from the basis of respect you obviously do. But the whole point is that there are exceptions, and the arguments you use are the same ones people use to run roughshod over people's mental health.

    Did you read the link I posted above that shows you can pick out Trans people from brain scans..... I find that puts the argument in a very, very different light.
    I did and not to me it doesn't. I don't give a flying fig what people are, they are people. As soon as I differentiate for one, I make them stand out, or, I treat each group differentially, which I do my utmost not to do.

    Why is it now deemed unacceptable for me to treat everyone with equal respect and equally? Is it because some wish to be treated as different? Because to my old ways, you cannot be treated equally if you want to be treated differentially.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    Absolutely! Which could go some way to explaining the massive mental health problems in the trans community. It would appear that it is the case though, certainly those studies point that way.
    I don't think this is the only problem. I think the UK is utterly terrible at dealing with mental health generally. The NHS is good at fixing simple broken things and simple diseases that have cures. It is not good at mental health other than chucking pills at people. It even handles people having serious illnesses investigated very poorly, causing poor mental health directly. It needs fixing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As for the bogs, as I've said upthread having "cubicles" and "urinals" and letting people get on with it is probably the best way. And for changing, have changing villages instead.

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  9. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    I totally disagree. Males have plumbing on the outside on females have plumbing on the inside (to use your terminology). This does not necessarily translate to boys and girls/men and women.

    All anyone is being asked to do is to consider the phrases they are using and choose gender-neutral versions if possible and appropriate - eg. using "they" or "Scouts". I don't this is hard, difficult, or an issue that should concern anyone.

    Essentially, it's about politeness and being considerate of other people.
    And I will not do that. Not at all. All this does is make me want use male and female terms even more.


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  10. #112
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    I agree Chris.

    Even ignoring the fact that genetics and biology show that itís massively more complex than the superficial plumbing.


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    Absolute rubbish. A male is someone that produces sperm and a female is someone that produces eggs.

    That is science and is not up for a debate.

    Now we go on to language. All the historic words to describe a man or a woman lead back to said person either being a male or a female as described above.

    You cannot change facts because your feelings donít like it. It is what it is.




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  11. #113
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    How you behave is all about politeness. The only difference is is that this is something you haven't been taught already and internalised as "how you behave".

    It is your duty not to discriminate. As a decent human being you should support diversity, but you don't have to "celebrate" it.
    But politeness is subjective. What you find polite I may find awkward. So who draws this line?


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  12. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    No, it's supporting a young person going through a particular issue. And not treating them with respect is going to harm them far more than any discomfort or potentially impaired breathing from binding their chest to make themselves feel like themselves.
    Again. Respect is subjective. Do we respect the 0.025% at the behest of maybe 50% of those that find it disrespectful?


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  13. #115
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    Absolutely! Which could go some way to explaining the massive mental health problems in the trans community. It would appear that it is the case though, certainly those studies point that way.
    And that it is a mental illness. We should not forget that.


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  14. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Absolute rubbish. A male is someone that produces sperm and a female is someone that produces eggs.

    That is science and is not up for a debate.

    Now we go on to language. All the historic words to describe a man or a woman lead back to said person either being a male or a female as described above.

    You cannot change facts because your feelings donít like it. It is what it is.




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    And someone who has had a hysterectomy is...

    Or what about my cat. He has had his bits removed. Does that mean he is not a male?

    To be honest I donít think he cares if I call him a gorgeous boy Ora beautiful girl. All he cares about is Dreamies.


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  15. #117
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    I spent last night watching my Leaders & Young Leaders and their interaction with the cubs. Not one gender-specific comment. Everyone just referred to them as 'Cubs' - I guess that's us in the clear and I hadn't even mentioned the debate.

    I'm with Ewan - treat them as people. A young person struglling with the whole concept could cause problems - one week they're a boy, next they're a girl and a few weeks later they've realised they're something else. Best to just treat them as a person. We are there to support them and its only 90 minutes a week. Hopefully they can just enjoy that 90 minutes as a Cub and not think about all those other issues (including sexuality) that may be affecting them outside of scouting. Sometimes offering them an escape from the real world is what we do best.
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

  16. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I did and not to me it doesn't. I don't give a flying fig what people are, they are people. As soon as I differentiate for one, I make them stand out, or, I treat each group differentially, which I do my utmost not to do.

    Why is it now deemed unacceptable for me to treat everyone with equal respect and equally? Is it because some wish to be treated as different? Because to my old ways, you cannot be treated equally if you want to be treated differentially.
    I canít think of any more ways to put what I mean Bushfella, so best we leave it at that. Itís clear to me you havenít understood what I mean, and we are starting to go around in circles.


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  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Absolute rubbish. A male is someone that produces sperm and a female is someone that produces eggs.

    That is science and is not up for a debate.

    Now we go on to language. All the historic words to describe a man or a woman lead back to said person either being a male or a female as described above.

    You cannot change facts because your feelings don’t like it. It is what it is.




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    Ahem...

    In the 1960's it was a 'fact' that homosexuality was a mental health problem.

    Its also a 'fact' that after 1918, all men over 21 and women over 30 were allowed to vote... Something to do with ladies under 30 being too fragrant or some such...

    Also, we no longer burn witches.

    Otherwise, I refer back to what I said about a closed mind being the enemy of progress.

    And I suppose someone should point out, your first line is total nonsense, and if you had to explain why... (Although I would say, you've basically claimed all women over a certain age are in fact no longer women. Good luck with that outlook...)

    Good grief...

    We really need a rolling-eyes smiley.

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  19. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    We really need a rolling-eyes smiley.
    we have one

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