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Thread: Darth Vader and the Face Veil

  1. #31
    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    It would not surprise me, although I doubt we'll never know, if this man had "previous" for such behaviour.

    If what he has said is all there is to it then my opinion, and it is just an opinion, is that the correct response is a reprimand/word in the shell from GSL or DC and a requirement to do further diversity training. To me the decision to remove him suggests that is a process that has been through before.

    Interestingly if you search for associated news stories you can find it heavily reported by the website of Premier Radio, an evangelical Christian radio station. Not one mention in that report of "Darth Vader", simply saying that he is suing for discrimination. The below the line comments there are hysterical. Apparently scouting is sinful because of Grand Howl which involves encouraging cubs to worship false idols.

    Just to be clear to the non Christians out there, Premier Radio and the Christian Legal Center do not speak for Christians like me.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Yes, I suspect very poor journalism is at fault.

    I agree that the guy appears to have totally misjudged his response. Maybe he is not a good Scout Leader, but maybe he isn't all bad.

    Perhaps I don't get out much, but I have never met someone in a niqab. It's an alien concept. My impression is that they are ultra-conservative and want to distance themselves from other people. Fair enough, I will keep away.
    I agree with all the comments above I did not read the original article in scouting but did wonder at the photo (in my experience such ultra conservative dress doesn't usually indicate a willingness to mix socially with the opposites sex,) I did clock that the quote from Zinab said Hijab which most of the Muslim female leaders in our county wear when out and about. had the canoeing instructor expressed his valid concern about the health and safety issues around wearing niqads whilst canoeing in a sensible way then everyone could have benefited as it was a good question was drowned in a tidal wave of his prejudice.
    Last edited by Tony Ransley; 14-02-2018 at 08:16 AM.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Correct, and the journalist goes on to imply they have seen her canoeing and hiking in a full veil. I suspect this is a lie.
    I doubt if it was a deliberate untruth on the journalist's part, just the need to improve the read without minding about the facts too much.
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

  6. #34
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardsw16 View Post
    There are a lot of people on this thread who are passing judgement on the wearing of some clothing without fully understanding what it stands for or what the *wearer* believes it represents.

    --
    Hathi, 2nd Streatham Hill Cubs, London

    Almost everyone judges. Most people judge on appearance.

    You get off the train in a strange town and you are looking for a particular bank. You can't find it. There are two white middle aged women having a chat and two Black covered muslim women. Who do you ask for local directions? (okay, so most men will not ask for directions).

    I'll warrant most white travellers would ask the two white ladies.
    Ewan Scott

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  7. #35
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Almost everyone judges. Most people judge on appearance.

    You get off the train in a strange town and you are looking for a particular bank. You can't find it. There are two white middle aged women having a chat and two Black covered muslim women. Who do you ask for local directions? (okay, so most men will not ask for directions).

    I'll warrant most white travellers would ask the two white ladies.
    My direct personal experience of trying to talk to people dressed like our friend Zainab, at the school gate or round the village, is that they will either turn their backs, look away or say they don't speak English. That's what made me look deeper into why they wear such clothes.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  8. #36
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    My direct personal experience of trying to talk to people dressed like our friend Zainab, at the school gate or round the village, is that they will either turn their backs, look away or say they don't speak English. That's what made me look deeper into why they wear such clothes.
    So, it would surprise you that on a wet miserable Saturday, whilst waiting for my wife in Huddersfield, a lady asked me for directions to the bank. I turned around to find a beveiled musilim lady and her daughter ...

    I have had mixed reactions from "muslims", from those who have a faith of convenience, through to those who have some rather radical views on life. Same as with most religions.

    On this particular post - I took a look at 1st Facebook and it reaffirmed by decision to extract myself from that nest of vipers. They would lynch the poor misguided soul if they had the chance.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  9. #37
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    So, it would surprise you that on a wet miserable Saturday, whilst waiting for my wife in Huddersfield, a lady asked me for directions to the bank. I turned around to find a beveiled musilim lady and her daughter ....
    You obviously look more trustworthy than I do.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  10. #38
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    It would not surprise me, although I doubt we'll never know, if this man had "previous" for such behaviour.

    If what he has said is all there is to it then my opinion, and it is just an opinion, is that the correct response is a reprimand/word in the shell from GSL or DC and a requirement to do further diversity training. To me the decision to remove him suggests that is a process that has been through before.

    Interestingly if you search for associated news stories you can find it heavily reported by the website of Premier Radio, an evangelical Christian radio station. Not one mention in that report of "Darth Vader", simply saying that he is suing for discrimination. The below the line comments there are hysterical. Apparently scouting is sinful because of Grand Howl which involves encouraging cubs to worship false idols.

    Just to be clear to the non Christians out there, Premier Radio and the Christian Legal Center do not speak for Christians like me.
    Grand Howl with a wolf totem (the classic B-P version, oddly enough practiced by the BBS/BGS which is a very Christian group) seems very dodgy to me, our GSM wanted to introduce it but I wouldn't. Otherwise it's just Cubs squatting down and promising to do their best, I don't see how God can object to that.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  11. #39
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    Where I am, there aren't very many - okay, any - wearers of any sort of veil. Its all silly hats with ear flaps, indeed, often you can't see who you're talking to because of their hipster beard.

    Be that as it may. I find it hard to understand why someone covering their face is an issue - I suspect the real issue is the baggage and stigma which comes attached to the Islamic faith more than anything else. After all, we speak to people, and they speak to us with out seeing faces on a daily basis - on the phone.

    So I don't buy it. I'm not saying I wouldn't feel anything if I was plonked in front of someone in a hijab etc - I think though, more than anything else, it would be curiosity and not offence.

  12. #40
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    The full veil in day-to-day life does make me feel a little bit uncomfortable. It is completely alien to my experiences. Muslims that I know are very westernised and the most I'm used to is a hijab and that could be a fashion choice from a Christian woman as much as a religious choice by a Muslim woman. I wore my hood up this morning to keep my ears warm and there's little difference.

    I don't understand the full face veil although I remember writing a well-marked essay on it for GCSE RE.

    The darth vader reference was rather stupid... me? I have on occasion thought that a woman in the full niqab has looked like a character from the star wars movies but i think that is because i have probably seen star wars more often that i have encountered the niqab! There are people in london who look like characters from mad max... I went to new york and i related so much of what i saw to movies.

    I don't find it scary... but i do wonder what is going on that a woman in the west covers herself from head to toe. Where is the pressure to do so coming from? I don't know the answer and honestly? I've a hundred other more pressing issues but i'm curious... how much is this a free choice by the woman and how much is conscious and subconscious succumbing to pressure? How much is the veil an outward sign of oppression, is it that at all? should we be 100% accepting or should we question what else goes with the niqab?

    There is surely a debate that can be had without insulting each other and lessons that we can learn on the way?

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  14. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    I don't find it scary... but i do wonder what is going on that a woman in the west covers herself from head to toe. Where is the pressure to do so coming from? I don't know the answer and honestly? I've a hundred other more pressing issues but i'm curious... how much is this a free choice by the woman and how much is conscious and subconscious succumbing to pressure? How much is the veil an outward sign of oppression, is it that at all? should we be 100% accepting or should we question what else goes with the niqab?

    There is surely a debate that can be had without insulting each other and lessons that we can learn on the way?
    I would agree with this - at least some wearers are doing so through pressure not through free will. And that is unacceptable to me. It is, as I posted on 1FB, the classic liberal quandary as you can't take any view on it without being either religiously discriminatory or sexist. My personal line is that if forced into such a quandary that I will go in favour of the characteristic the person did not choose, i.e. that a woman has the right to dress as she wishes, and not feel pressured to dress in a specific way e.g. to avoid male attention or for religious reasons unless she herself wishes to.

  15. #42
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    I don't find it scary... but i do wonder what is going on that a woman in the west covers herself from head to toe. Where is the pressure to do so coming from? I don't know the answer and honestly? I've a hundred other more pressing issues but i'm curious... how much is this a free choice by the woman and how much is conscious and subconscious succumbing to pressure? How much is the veil an outward sign of oppression, is it that at all? should we be 100% accepting or should we question what else goes with the niqab?
    In living memory, in some parts of these islands we had some , by today's standards, extreme clothing choices for women. Men have largely always had the freedom but women have often been subservient and submitted to stricter rules. As a child, I can recall the women in black, long dresses, long sleeves,and always with a hat when outdoors. That was Sunday dress for many, and widow's wear for others. These were members of the "Wee Free", and a generation or so before they would have been members of the Church of Scotland. The black attire was also common across Europe in countries of either persuasion.

    When I moved down to Yorkshire, our kids did a re-enactment at school and the girls, dressed as women had to dress in long black dresses and wear white caps. There were women in the village who visited their school and told them of how it was like that in their youth before the war.

    We are only two or three generations away from religiously defined fashion for the followers of some faiths.

    What about the men? Well, my dad never went out without a tie unless he was on holiday. He would be working on the car and need to go down to the garage to get parts. He would go into the house, wash up, put his good clothes on and walk down to the garage. When he came back he would get changed again. I recall us decorating and we ran out of paste. I was sent town to the hardware store to get more paste, but first I had to put proper clothes on...

    What worries me about the veling of women, and the insistance on traditional attire, is that it appears to be growing rather than fading. That indicates a growing divide in our society and that can never be good.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 14-02-2018 at 12:39 PM.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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  17. #43
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I would agree with this - at least some wearers are doing so through pressure not through free will. And that is unacceptable to me. It is, as I posted on 1FB, the classic liberal quandary as you can't take any view on it without being either religiously discriminatory or sexist. My personal line is that if forced into such a quandary that I will go in favour of the characteristic the person did not choose, i.e. that a woman has the right to dress as she wishes, and not feel pressured to dress in a specific way e.g. to avoid male attention or for religious reasons unless she herself wishes to.
    Accepting these labels is what stifles debate. We don't have to accept that just because someone else calls us names, we lose the right to state an opinion, particularly if our opinion is backed up by facts.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Accepting these labels is what stifles debate. We don't have to accept that just because someone else calls us names, we lose the right to state an opinion, particularly if our opinion is backed up by facts.
    The problem with this though, is there are no facts, just opinions and opposing views and circumstances. It seems to me, we need to learn when not to take offence and when to just not be particularly bothered about a thing. Its okay to just not have an opinion.

  19. #45
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    There are lots of facts, I can think of at least three right now.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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