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Thread: Darth Vader and the Face Veil

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    Darth Vader and the Face Veil

    Two questions

    Was anyone offered diversity training ?

    Is X-SAS a larger formation than X-Para ?

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Here's possibly the original story...

    https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/b...-after-1199263

    I'd say his comments, especially in writing, were at best ill judged.

    I dressed up as the Imperial Emperor once, there was a darth vader, several Princess Leia's, a Padame, and our littlest network member found a bear suit and dressed as an Ewok. We didn't go canoeing.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Here's possibly the original story...

    https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/b...-after-1199263

    I'd say his comments, especially in writing, were at best ill judged.

    I dressed up as the Imperial Emperor once, there was a darth vader, several Princess Leia's, a Padame, and our littlest network member found a bear suit and dressed as an Ewok. We didn't go canoeing.


    Hmmm. I suspect that there will be more to this than has been said. The Darth Vader comment, in the context of kayaking, is actually probably insensitive but not actually unrealistic. If the letter was not published, and he was dismissed four days later, then I suspect there was much more to this letter than has been revealed.

    I fear he is not alone - I have heard similar in my time in Scouts.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Based on the comments in the story, TBH I feel he is probably best not to be in TSA.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Secretary and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    How should TSA manage child protection WRT people who cover their faces?

    I imagine the process goes something like this. Mrs. A. bint Abi Bakr turns up at 1st Loamshire and asks for a place as a Leader, dressed in full niqab. She goes to her appointment committee interview, and presumably a member of the committee who identifies as female checks under the veil that she is who her passport says she is. Congratulations, you're in. Off she trots and gets her DBS.

    Two nights later someone dressed just like the one who originally turned up, arrives at the Scout Hut expecting to participate as a leader. No-one can see her face, and there are no female leaders to check who she is. She won't remove her veil in the company of men. No-one in the group knows her well enough to identify her based on how she walks, height, voice or other distinguishing features.

    Once might be OK ( equivalent to parent helper), but she comes back again, and again. You still can't guarantee that the person behind the mask is the person with the appointment and the DBS. What do you do? Who pays for your court costs?
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Read this a couple of days ago, and wondered what wasn't in the story.

    I have a modicum of sympathy with the view that Scouting magazine always seems to have some form of article with a bit of a PC element behind it - generally a "look what we're doing with Muslims/Disabled/LGBT etc" focus - which are all good things to be doing but not sure it needs to be pressed home quite so often. Someone ought to be able to question the editor about that focus without getting the order of the boot - although you'd hope they'd be less inflammatory in how that was expressed. Even with it being stupidly worded, I'm not sure that alone justifies a 4 day turnaround on marching orders.

    I'd hope therefore there is more to this which justifies that sort of instant decision, and its not another knee jerk expulsion, but I'm not convinced. That said from what I know of the church mentioned in the article I'd expect fairly "conservative evangelical" views from anyone attending there, so this might not be the only transgression against inclusivity. Will be interesting to see whether as suggested Christian Legal Centre take it further - they're not renowned for backing out of a fight, and even if they only take it so far, TSA might be forced into some interesting disclosures on their practices.

    (Article in this magazine if you scroll down to page 46 - http://scouts.org.uk/media/817850/Sc...March-2017.PDF)
    Last edited by mang21; 13-02-2018 at 11:13 AM.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    (Article in this magazine if you scroll down to page 46 - http://scouts.org.uk/media/817850/Sc...March-2017.PDF)
    Hope she realises she's not insured if she's not wearing a necker.

    Didn't realise that she was only a leader in a sex-segregated, religiously segregated group. That's OK then.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Didn't realise that she was only a leader in a sex-segregated, religiously segregated group. That's OK then.
    "Only"? She's on the same pay grade as you.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2017 - May 2018
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    "Only"? She's on the same pay grade as you.
    I get a bigger bonus.

    I've said elsewhere on this site that I object to segregation by sex or religion, in scouting. The 'only' was sarcastic, as people will say she's not imposing anything on anyone, within a group of that kind. I guess it also solves the DBS question.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    How should TSA manage child protection WRT people who cover their faces?

    I imagine the process goes something like this. Mrs. A. bint Abi Bakr turns up at 1st Loamshire and asks for a place as a Leader, dressed in full niqab. She goes to her appointment committee interview, and presumably a member of the committee who identifies as female checks under the veil that she is who her passport says she is. Congratulations, you're in. Off she trots and gets her DBS.

    Two nights later someone dressed just like the one who originally turned up, arrives at the Scout Hut expecting to participate as a leader. No-one can see her face, and there are no female leaders to check who she is. She won't remove her veil in the company of men. No-one in the group knows her well enough to identify her based on how she walks, height, voice or other distinguishing features.

    Once might be OK ( equivalent to parent helper), but she comes back again, and again. You still can't guarantee that the person behind the mask is the person with the appointment and the DBS. What do you do? Who pays for your court costs?
    Hey SL, i found you a helper, i've DBSd him already coz he's gonna be useful somewhere in the group. He's coming down to see you next week. His name's steve. he fancies helping with scouts so give him a try...

    steve doesn't turn up... but bob does.

    GSL rarely gets down to scouts as is is bad night for him...

    should the SL photo ID him?

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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    Hey SL, i found you a helper, i've DBSd him already coz he's gonna be useful somewhere in the group. He's coming down to see you next week. His name's steve. he fancies helping with scouts so give him a try...

    steve doesn't turn up... but bob does.

    GSL rarely gets down to scouts as is is bad night for him...

    should the SL photo ID him?
    Hmm, dunno. I guess eventually Bob will be caught out, but I'd hope he doesn't do to much harm inbetweentimes.

    So yeah, if we're going to have DBS checks, we should make sure somehow that the person who's been checked is the person working with the young people.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Hmm, dunno. I guess eventually Bob will be caught out, but I'd hope he doesn't do to much harm inbetweentimes.

    So yeah, if we're going to have DBS checks, we should make sure somehow that the person who's been checked is the person working with the young people.
    I'd be comfortable asking somebody with a veil to prove they are themselves if i had my doubts. How? They will have cards in their name, i might have their phone number so i could call their mobile, they could show me they are logged into facebook etc in their name...

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    I'd be comfortable asking somebody with a veil to prove they are themselves if i had my doubts. How? They will have cards in their name, i might have their phone number so i could call their mobile, they could show me they are logged into facebook etc in their name...
    I believe it is accepted that a woman wearing the veil may reveal her face to another woman in a suitably private place in order to confirm identity or similar.

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    Would you want someone with limited peripheral vision supervising your young people while canoeing, hiking etc?
    http://scouts.org.uk/media/817850/Sc...17.PDF#page=47

    If they were 'my' Scouts, I would want to ensure that there was also someone watching the young people that did not have their vision obstructed.


    Paul

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Would you want someone with limited peripheral vision supervising your young people while canoeing, hiking etc?
    http://scouts.org.uk/media/817850/Sc...17.PDF#page=47

    If they were 'my' Scouts, I would want to ensure that there was also someone watching the young people that did not have their vision obstructed.


    Paul
    amazing...

    are you spoofing right-wing stupidity or is this legit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    list of the newly banned in scouting:

    people with a lazy eye
    people who are blind in one eye
    balaclavas
    sherpa glasses for snow activities
    hoods that you can tie up on cold days or in extreme weather
    baseball caps (that stop you seeing upwards)
    masks

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