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Thread: Young leaders+capitation (ams)

  1. #106
    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    If they are an Explorer Scout they are a YL. The DoE thing allows an exemption to TSA membership for those who are not TSA members and wish to do service.
    it's not actually an exemption to membership as such. they are simply allowed to use scouting as a youth organisation in which there is a specific programme which meets the objectives of the volunteering section. but hey most people listen to your words and ignore mine!

    PAME has an exclusion on the Medical Expenses section only, reading as follows:

    b. Which are recoverable from any other insurance
    policy or national insurance programme which is
    applicable to the Policyholder


    So for that part, if the DoE insurance applies then that, otherwise PAME.
    so yes DofE cover applies - they're doing DofE with a LO that is not scouts)! - why wouldn't it apply? but you're saying 'first and foremost they are an explorer scout' (largely ignoring the fact they're doing a DofE programme through school) so PAME applies.

    why do you believe the DofE insurance doesn't have similar get out clauses?

    For the rest of it the same as any other "double insurance" situation, i.e. where you have two policies covering the same risk without get-out clauses like that, they are jointly and severally liable, i.e. you can claim from one of the policies (your choice which one) but not more than one. They may then be able to claim off each other, but that's their problem not yours.
    yawn

    That is tenuous in the extreme.
    eh? a member doing YLs (as a YL!) is able to do DofE volunteering with an external LO and is also able to access all other parts of the explorer programme. An external candidate is restricted to the volunteering section work only; they do not have access to other parts of the programme.

    Anyone got time to do so and post it here?
    no.

    I've got the time...

    but not the inclination.

    TM
    going...going...still here...just

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by merryweather View Post
    why do you believe the DofE insurance doesn't have similar get out clauses?
    If DoE insurance doesn't work for this purpose under 14, then PAME applies in full as there is not another valid policy.

    If both policies have the same clause, that causes an issue where both policies apply (over 14), not where no policy applies. In such a case they have to argue it out among themselves.

    yawn
    Insurance is boring, but it pays to understand the facts and read the policy in full whenever you take it out.

    ISTR TSA's guide to their policies being called "The Insomniac's Guide"

    eh? a member doing YLs (as a YL!) is able to do DofE volunteering with an external LO and is also able to access all other parts of the explorer programme. An external candidate is restricted to the volunteering section work only; they do not have access to other parts of the programme.
    I don't deny that. What I don't agree with is the frankly bizarre idea that an Explorer Scout who is a YL and happens to use it to tick off his DoE (as is very often the case) would somehow be treated differently by TSA than an ES who is a YL but not using it to tick off his DoE, other than that very specific double insurance clause relating to one very small part of PAME (which won't apply to most cases anyway).

  3. #108
    Keith at 2M Keith at 2M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingstonCubber View Post
    According to the Unity website that is simply incorrect.

    Who is covered?
    All members and prospective members of the Scout Association whose units are recorded at Headquarters and are situated in the United Kingdom (including Scotland), Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.


    When am I covered?
    You are covered for an accident which arises whilst you are travelling to, participating in, or travelling home from any authorised Scout activity.

    If the YL is an Explorer Scout then they're presumably a member of the Scout Association. And if they are taking part in an authorised Scout activity then they're covered.

    It seems very simple. Or am I missing something?
    This can't possibly be correct - You forgot about the 'must be wearing uniform' bit and the 'must be invested' bit and the 'can only be invested by a warranted (whatever that is nowadays) leader' bit. And I should know because like the other leaders down the pub I've never actually read POR properly but if I say it loud and often enough it must be true.

    Shouldn't we be looking at positive ways to make things happen for these young people rather than trying to find definitions to stop things happening. If I have a keen 13 1/2 year old who wants to help and the alternative is saying come back in 6 months time, when they might have lost interest, then I will try and find ways to include them now rather than risk losing them.
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

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  5. #109
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    The main gripe with the group being charged AMS for YLs is with those who are actively paying Subs ( and included with that AMS) to their home ESU. As the ESU's are district provision, the money the ES YLs pay to their ESU is going to District

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    The main gripe with the group being charged AMS for YLs is with those who are actively paying Subs ( and included with that AMS) to their home ESU. As the ESU's are district provision, the money the ES YLs pay to their ESU is going to District
    If a YL is also taking part in the 'core' ES programme, and paying subs to an ESU in the District then there is no reason at all for the District to even be considering asking for the Group to pay the Annual Membership Fee. It has already been paid. The Group should simply refuse to pay the fee.

    Paul

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  8. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    The main gripe with the group being charged AMS for YLs is with those who are actively paying Subs ( and included with that AMS) to their home ESU. As the ESU's are district provision, the money the ES YLs pay to their ESU is going to District
    As I understand it, members should only be paying AMS once. (What remains from subs after AMS has been deducted, I suppose is up for grabs.)

    I think the problem pops when, (and we had this question/issue), area/HQ/who ever are wanting to record how many Explorers and how many YL's there are. It might result in double counting.

  9. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think the problem pops when, (and we had this question/issue), area/HQ/who ever are wanting to record how many Explorers and how many YL's there are. It might result in double counting.
    Which is presumably why on the Group Census forms it was made clear that the YL information was for statistical purposes only, and therefore not part of the annual census of Members. If District has chosen to 'double count' these people then that is a District problem to fix not a Group one.


    Paul

  10. #113
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    An "interesting" slant on this is where do young leaders belong? Might seem a strange comment but we have several young leaders in our explorer unit. They all pay subs to the unit and the unit pays their membership subscription. In a conversation with the GSL of one of the groups in which some of these young leaders work he was adamant that our unit should pay the subscription (no problem there, financial arrangements are already in place to sort this) but, when it comes to anything else they are his young leaders from his group and their allegiance is to his group - the unit comes second. Having your cake and eating it comes to mind.

  11. #114
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    An "interesting" slant on this is where do young leaders belong
    Unless I've been doing it wrong...

    Young leaders are Explorer Scouts, the Young leader bit is an add on to the Explorer Scout section, their primary allegiance is to their home ESU.
    If there is an event or an activity that clashes then the ES YL's should be expected to attend the Explorer Scout event, if there is a joint Scout+Explorer Scout event then i would expect those in Explorer Scouts who are Young Leaders to be there as Explorer Scouts, taking part in the activities as participants and not chaperoning Scouts/Cubs/Beavers or helping to run a base/activity.
    They are Youth members, under 18 and as such they only have a limited time ( upto their 18th Birthday) to enjoy and take part in the Explorer Scout section.
    After that they will have a lifetime to take part in as much Leader stuff as they wish

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  13. #115
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Young Leaders belong where they want to belong - some have more allegiance to the section they help in than the ESU, some prefer to join in the activities at the ESU. We have had YL who have continued being an active YL and stopped going to ESU events whilst preparing for exams, etc. At a District Camp they may well split their time, helping with "their" Beavers, Cubs and Scouts during the day and joining in the Explorer activities in the evenings.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

  14. #116
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    Generally, as posted above i would expect them to take part in the Explorer event/activity, however if they chose the group event/YL aspect then fair enough, for example a Section event clashes with an explorer camp such as theme park camp/water activity camp/hike weekend then i may quickly ask Not taking part in the Explorer ( whatever) event/weekend/camp, and the answer would typically be - dont like roller-coaster/hiking/water activities, likewise i dont think they should be pressured to help as a YL over their explorer events

  15. #117
    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    Generally, as posted above i would expect them to take part in the Explorer event/activity, however if they chose the group event/YL aspect then fair enough, for example a Section event clashes with an explorer camp such as theme park camp/water activity camp/hike weekend then i may quickly ask Not taking part in the Explorer ( whatever) event/weekend/camp, and the answer would typically be - dont like roller-coaster/hiking/water activities, likewise i dont think they should be pressured to help as a YL over their explorer events
    You would expect! Surely the choice in clashes like this should be down to the YP, paying no regard to the adult's "expectation" or questioning of their choice!
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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  17. #118
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    It's not the young person's choice that is in question. We have never questioned their choice when it comes to conflicts between explorer unit and scout group. It is the group in which they are young leaders who are creating the situation. The group is very happy to claim that the youngsters belong to their group when it comes to basking in the "glory" of to the youngsters' achievements but have no desire to take part in financing the youngsters in their scouting.

  18. #119
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    Once they've done, or attempted to do Chief Scout Gold Award in the Scout section, the group/Scout section stuff ends, from then on the various Explorer Awards, DofE etc are under the auspices of the Explorer Scout provision.
    So if someone achieves the Chief Scout Diamond award, a gentle push may have come from the group, but the big shove would have come from the Explorer Scout provision ( not to mention the work of the Explorer scout himself/herself)
    The Explorer acheiving whatever it is will be Joe Blogs, a member of Phoenix ESU, central somewhereshire District Scouts, and not Joe Blogs, a Young leader with the Scouts at 1st somewhere Scout group

  19. #120
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    I think there may be a bit of to-ing and fro-ing with YL's versus ESU stuff.

    If I was an ESL, (which I suppose I am as it happens), I might be miffed if I went to a lot of effort to organise an event, but I couldn't get the numbers because my ES's had chosen to do YL stuff.

    I mean, its just a cost of doing business so to speak, there would be nothing I could do about it because its up to them at the end of the day - but it would probably grate slightly.

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