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Thread: Do we need modules to be able to teach YP or adults

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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Do we need modules to be able to teach YP or adults

    To avoid diverting the thread on autism even further.

    I am right beside Merryweather - the (trainer) lunatics have been in charge of the asylum for too long.

    You do not need to do several modules of training to share your skills in Scouting with other adults - if you make a mess of it then they won't come back but they will still have learnt something.

    A healthcare professional should not be insulted by telling them have to do Scouting training to deliver First Response.

    The only area TSA have right is the YL scheme where they have made it clear that any leader can deliver the material (hooray), but there are many on my County who think that is inappropriate and that First Response (Module K) should only be delivered by First Response trainers who have been specially approved!

    I think we should abolish Modules 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, and 34 immediately and concentrate on letting those with experience and knowledge share it with those who want it without let or hindrance!
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    To avoid diverting the thread on autism even further.

    I am right beside Merryweather - the (trainer) lunatics have been in charge of the asylum for too long.

    You do not need to do several modules of training to share your skills in Scouting with other adults - if you make a mess of it then they won't come back but they will still have learnt something.

    A healthcare professional should not be insulted by telling them have to do Scouting training to deliver First Response.

    The only area TSA have right is the YL scheme where they have made it clear that any leader can deliver the material (hooray), but there are many on my County who think that is inappropriate and that First Response (Module K) should only be delivered by First Response trainers who have been specially approved!

    I think we should abolish Modules 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, and 34 immediately and concentrate on letting those with experience and knowledge share it with those who want it without let or hindrance!
    As far as I am aware only modules 28 and 29 have to be validated to deliver First Response or other training.

    I don't see why someone should be insulted if they need to do a couple of modules to deliver first aid training. I once went to help out on a course delivered by a paramedic. He had gone to the trouble of having the First Response book put onto acetate sheets
    which he could then project onto a screen and read out to the people on the course. He also brought some equipment that nobody on the course was going to be able to use and showed it to them. Little time was left for actual practice.

    I am sure he was a good paramedic but I can't say that he was much good as a first aid trainer. I suspect this was because he had not been trained as a first aid trainer.

    I think Merryweather said that there were no courses available and nobody to assess him. In my county I had no trouble finding a course or getting someone to assess me. I also found that my assessor - far from being a lunatic - was a very skilled trainer.

    When I deliverer First Response I sometime find that people have been told all sorts of things on previous courses. If we let anyone who fancies it deliver adult training I think things will only get worse.

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    ASL Kev's Avatar
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    Scout training is all about ticking boxes. You have to get trained on a module so you go on a training course and get a tick in your box regardless of whether the training was any good. If the person doing the training is doing a training module then they get a tick in their box regardless of whether they were any good. Difficult to see how it could be any different in the box ticking society we live in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Scout training is all about ticking boxes. You have to get trained on a module so you go on a training course and get a tick in your box regardless of whether the training was any good. If the person doing the training is doing a training module then they get a tick in their box regardless of whether they were any good. Difficult to see how it could be any different in the box ticking society we live in.
    You don't have to get trained in a module (Learning Optional Validation Essential).

    I would hope that the person doing the training will not be automatically validated if they are not doing it well.

    I think that it was put quite well on a session that i went on when the present system came in. It was suggested to us that if you send your child to a swimming class at the local sport centre you assume that the teacher is properly qualified. If you send your child to Scouts you should be able to assume the same thing.

    I think that there is also an argument that if we insist on people validating modules in order to deliver training there is a bigger chance that that training will be good. I am also a St John trainer and we have to be observed every year plus extra observations to qualify in new subjects. It can be a bit of a "pain" but I think this keeps standards up.

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    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    You don't have to get trained in a module (Learning Optional Validation Essential).

    I would hope that the person doing the training will not be automatically validated if they are not doing it well.

    I think that it was put quite well on a session that i went on when the present system came in. It was suggested to us that if you send your child to a swimming class at the local sport centre you assume that the teacher is properly qualified. If you send your child to Scouts you should be able to assume the same thing.

    I think that there is also an argument that if we insist on people validating modules in order to deliver training there is a bigger chance that that training will be good. I am also a St John trainer and we have to be observed every year plus extra observations to qualify in new subjects. It can be a bit of a "pain" but I think this keeps standards up.
    That rather begs the question does the same thing happen with TSA trainers and if not, why not?
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    a quiver full of barbs merryweather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    You don't have to get trained in a module (Learning Optional Validation Essential).
    supposedly.

    validation and validation opportunities are difficult in places. many places insist on you going on a course because then they can 'bundle' all aspects of 'training' into that one thing which makes everything a lot easier.

    I would hope that the person doing the training will not be automatically validated if they are not doing it well.
    hmmmm...

    I think that it was put quite well on a session that i went on when the present system came in. It was suggested to us that if you send your child to a swimming class at the local sport centre you assume that the teacher is properly qualified. If you send your child to Scouts you should be able to assume the same thing.

    I think that there is also an argument that if we insist on people validating modules in order to deliver training there is a bigger chance that that training will be good. I am also a St John trainer and we have to be observed every year plus extra observations to qualify in new subjects. It can be a bit of a "pain" but I think this keeps standards up.
    i recall a SLs meeting a few years ago. one SL remarked on the falling numbers of troops entering the county challenge (a 25-35 mile 2-day expedition hike). 20 years ago you'd have 15/18 troops entering, now it was down to just 2 or 3. the reason given was the poor level of map and compass skills (and navigation skills in general) in the district. a fellow SL offered to put on a training course. as expected every troop was eager to bite his hand off. he suggested that it would be best if he did a course for leaders (rather than 18+ courses!) and then any that needed a follow-up. (i believe he was a member of some navigation institute and he also had some instructor certificate from his orienteering club or some such like.)

    never happened.... because he wasn't a scout certified trainer. (iirc, he needed to have done a number of the supplementary modules, got assessed on the learning, before he could do it.) i have never seen an opportunity to undertake a supplementary module. (if there are any done down here then they're entirely bespoke for particular people.)

    shame.

    i changed role soon after but i think a few years later the DC or DDC did a basic course. they were scout certified trainers. don't think they know anything about map and compass beyond knowing that the red end of the needle on a compass points north. (that's a little unfair but the level wouldn't be much more than elementary.)

    training looks nice but for many it's next to useless.

    what do i get out of doing scout training?

    i get to learn how to be a youth worker.

    i don't get to learn how to use a gravestone to find my way.

    got to go and practice my reef knot...left over right...left over right....damn!



    TM
    going...going...still here...just

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    I think this kind of urban myth just helps to undermine the scheme. Lots of weasel words.

    A return to L1/L2 would remove any check on actual ability and remove flexibility.

    Just because the system is not 100% in the team works doesn't mean we should bin it. Saw someone refer the the Theft Act the same way - thefts still happen so bin the act?

    Poor local implementation is just that. We've seen a huge increase in the awareness of NA possibilities through sharing and questioning on here and 1fb.
    This allows new leaders to challenge local misunderstandings.

    Maybe it's the training /validation event's turn next.

    Sent from my FRD-L09 using Tapatalk

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    AESL & AGSL shiftypete's Avatar
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    never happened.... because he wasn't a scout certified trainer. (iirc, he needed to have done a number of the supplementary modules, got assessed on the learning, before he could do it.) i have never seen an opportunity to undertake a supplementary module. (if there are any done down here then they're entirely bespoke for particular people.)
    What utter rubbish, you don't need to be a Scout Certified Trainer to offer skills training to fellow Leaders and if I were you I would have simply ignored whoever told you that you did and organised the training and offered it regardless.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    I did Module 25 a few years ago - I am afraid that it taught me very little that I had not learnt from being an interviewer at work, being an examiner for a professional institution and having been an instructor for two years in a company train school. My memory was that apart from a few chats over coffee and the conversations in the exercises (once we had done what we had to do), it was a rather dull day. The instruction was not inspired with a lot of powerpoint slides being read out and very little account taken of the students prior knowledge or areas of interest.
    Looking at the modules I mentioned - most of them have a note "This module is one of a number targeted at those who wish to be Trainers in The Scout Association. Therefore there is no choice of validation method. All the criteria need to be met and a portfolio of evidence produced." Sounds very much "do it our way, or not at all".
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    Senior Member Airobat's Avatar
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    I'm old so I remember the previous version of training which required attendance at various weekends. The biggest complaint was having to give up whole weekends so TSA brought in a modular system and now we have comments that the old system was better. I'd probably deduce that a lot of leaders are time poor and don't want to give up the time to go training so it doesn't matter how or when the training is offered. That's OK. If they know the module content then they can go straight to validation. Remember, you can validate anywhere. I've validated several people from out of County over the years.

    Why can't all leaders train other leaders? Because some of them are not good at doing it. Because it can perpetuate bad habits. But, let's face it, in the real world most of the training comes from the other leaders in the section/group anyway. All that validation does is apply a common standard (allegedly).

    You're a trainer in your job. Fine! Offer to run a course. What should happen is that someone will sit in with you and validate the trainer modules by direct observation. Again, it's a quality control step.

    I know that during my time in training, some trainers have been asked to step down after consistently poor feedback. Others have been required to modify their delivery to address poor feedback.

    It's a shame that skills training isn't part of the training matrix. Our County have occasionally run skills weekends and they've been well attended so there's clearly a need. Perhaps TSA think that this sort of thing is best covered in section .

    I know there is frustration in places at the way the training scheme has been/is being implemented. That doesn't mean the training scheme is not fit for purpose but that the local rules and clique mentality need to be addressed (these happened under the old scheme as well).

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    The thing is...

    If you want to be a Leader (by which I mean, a section leader) is it not fair to say that, having the odd free weekend is somewhat mandatory? Is it not just a further watering down of what a section leader is and what they should be doing?

    The old system was two weekends out of a lifetime, and, the weekends I did, where modular anyway - so could be offered to those who absolutely couldn't do a weekend on a modular basis anyway - also, arguably - a lot of it was a waste of time, and to be honest - other than for the camping side of things, you didn't even need to stay overnight...

    Oddly enough, in order to get an NAP, you need to go away for a weekend anyway (loosely speaking), since that really should be a core skill - could/should the two not be re-amalgamated? The whole notion of leadership in scouts - presumably in order to get folk in the door - has been watered down. For every new volunteer who starts off slowly but gets right into it (goes camping, loves the outdoors and becomes a section leader), there seems to be a lot more who don't, because it is no longer even close to being an expectation.

    Its a bit like charity shops telling potential volunteers not to worry, because they won't have to sell clothes or deal with the public.

    For me, in terms of validation (because being trained by existing leaders is a good idea with a wee bit of checking every now and again), there is a serious flaw in terms of who doing the validation - because in terms of getting people into those positions - it has all the same constraints as recruitment into those leader positions.

    It's confusing to me how expectations differ between different aspects of training too...
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 31-03-2018 at 11:37 AM.

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    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airobat View Post

    You're a trainer in your job. Fine! Offer to run a course. What should happen is that someone will sit in with you and validate the trainer modules by direct observation. Again, it's a quality control step.

    ----
    I know there is frustration in places at the way the training scheme has been/is being implemented. That doesn't mean the training scheme is not fit for purpose but that the local rules and clique mentality need to be addressed (these happened under the old scheme as well).
    Both of these are very right but we have to realise its not the way it is actually delivered

    Rich

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    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    My view is that the modules could work if they were:
    a) sit down with a TA and discuss what experience and prior learning you have for a module,
    b) decide on the best way of completing the module (could be training, could be putting it into practice, etc.)
    c) validate the module.

    Around here that sort of works for the core modules (we are a bit short of TAs) but the problem is that there is virtually no training available for modules so that option in b) does not work. Instead people learn from each other, muddle through and perpetuate the bad habits. For the training modules, I have been told that you have to go on the training and then be assessed - part a) does not exist!
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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    I'm also wary of the idea bad habits abound and perpetuate. I think that with the training the way it is, that's a self fulfilling prophecy - the current scheme won't fix it but it may cause it. And, there is no guarantee that those doing the validating are any more informed than the people they're validating - by which I mean - who watches the watchers?

    So to speak...


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    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    The biggest problem I find with the training is no one actually wants to do it. It is largely a perception problem in that once they see the large number of modules they just roll their eyes and keep their heads done hoping no one chases them. No one sees what the value is in it.

    We need to at least halve the number of modules maybe even reduce them more. We also need to make them more relevant and interesting. We also need to speed up the validation part as having to find a TA after having done a module just adds to the hassle.

    The quality of some of the modules needs to be improved as well. I am currently trying to get members of my exec to do the online Module 1E (https://members.scouts.org.uk/traini...info_05012016/). One has done it and when asked by the other exec members what it was like said it was a bit childish. This hasn't encouraged the others to do it, and to be honest I agree with the "childish" description.

    There needs to be a root and branch change to the system or it will continue to be seen as complicated, irrelevant, and will be widely ignored.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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