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Thread: Gender Pay Gap Data

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Personally I am shocked that we, as a country, are prepared to tolerate a situation where 49% of people earn less than the average wage.
    That makes me think of politicians who appear to think it is possible for all kids to get better exam results than the average.

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    We could always be serious, or we could let Pie deal with it. NSFW (rude words).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GWHgVZJQU

    Shapiro and Yiannopolous say similar stuff, but no-one has to listen to them because they're, like, male. Oh, and right-wing, so evil.

    It is hard to convince the female Cubs in my Pack that they can achieve anything they want, when society is busy telling them that they're losers, just because of their gender. I don't tell the boys that they're 32 times more likely to die at work than the girls. I don't want to put them off.
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    The difference in pay between men and women is only a tiny tiny fraction down to gender.

    The gender pay gap is completely false and no expert agrees with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    The difference in pay between men and women is only a tiny tiny fraction down to gender.
    So what else is it down to if not gender? If you mean its because men tend to have more senior/higher paying roles than I am afraid that fact is still down to gender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    That makes me think of politicians who appear to think it is possible for all kids to get better exam results than the average.
    That depends whether you regard qualifications as being representative of the year group (ie. everyone essentially ranked) or a simple statement of ability/achievement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    The difference in pay between men and women is only a tiny tiny fraction down to gender.

    The gender pay gap is completely false and no expert agrees with it.
    Of course it's down to gender; the facts make it clear. But the real issue we need to solve isn't pay but progression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    So what else is it down to if not gender? If you mean its because men tend to have more senior/higher paying roles than I am afraid that fact is still down to gender.
    It's partly also down to people's past decisions.

    A CEO is going to be at least 55, in order to have the kind of experience necessary to run a large company successfully. This means that he and his wife were starting a family around 1988, when conditions weren't the same as they are now. It's highly likely that they would have decided that she should give up her job to look after the kids, while he concentrated on work. His reward for hard work and talent is a high salary; hers is a family and perhaps a part-time job now they're all away from home. that shows up as a gender pay gap, whereas both parties knew what they were doing. Mrs. IHC and I made a similar decision in the early 2000's, when the cost of childcare meant it was better for me to stay at home and look after Child 1 and Child 2. That means she has gone from slightly ahead to really far far ahead, in terms of her earning potential. Should I get a politician to write to the papers complaining on my behalf?

    It's now possible for people to share childcare more equitably, but men still can't bear children or breastfeed, so women will spend time away from the workplace, if they have children. That time may only be a couple of months, but it adds up in terms of lost experience.

    Of course, the real reason for the fuss is that it gives mathematically illiterate politicians the chance to look like they're supporting an underdog. Where is the fuss about the gender skew in terms of biological science, nursing or midwifery? Where is the fuss about the gender death gap? Hence all the gentle joshing about means and averages upstream in this thread. You can make stats say anything you want, if you try hard enough and think you have something to gain from manipulating the data.
    Last edited by Ihatecamping; 05-04-2018 at 03:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    The gender pay gap is completely false and no expert agrees with it.
    Mmm, I just googled 'An expert who agrees with the gender pay gap', and there seems to be rather a lot. They may not all agree on the details... But they agree its there. There's all sorts of professors and economists in there...

    Its quite interesting...

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    There are two issues so it depends what you are talking about really.

    The govt has defined the gender pay gap as a high level measure of the difference between mean and median earnings between all women and all men at a company.

    The other issue is equal pay for men and women in similar roles / seniority / performance.

    In most cases the gender pay gap will be driven by the disparity between number of men and women in higher paid roles vs lower paid roles. This is still a gender issue though and something companies should be looking to address.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon.md View Post
    This is still a gender issue though and something companies should be looking to address.
    Do all men want to be in senior roles? Do all women? Is the proportion of men who want to be in senior roles different to the proportion of women who do? The gender pay gap analysis ignores all of these questions, as does the suggestion that companies should "do something about it."

    An interesting statistic for this discussion goes: the "freer" a woman is to choose to go into STEM, the less likely she is to do so.... https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...n-stem/553592/

    Women should have the same opportunities as men to pick a career, be free from abuse during it, and to progress as far can on their technical merits. I'm not sure a 50:50 split at all levels would be the result of that, and making that 50:50 split your aim, is not necessarily the best idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    It's partly also down to people's past decisions.

    A CEO is going to be at least 55, in order to have the kind of experience necessary to run a large company successfully. This means that he and his wife were starting a family around 1988, when conditions weren't the same as they are now. It's highly likely that they would have decided that she should give up her job to look after the kids, while he concentrated on work. His reward for hard work and talent is a high salary; hers is a family and perhaps a part-time job now they're all away from home. that shows up as a gender pay gap, whereas both parties knew what they were doing. Mrs. IHC and I made a similar decision in the early 2000's, when the cost of childcare meant it was better for me to stay at home and look after Child 1 and Child 2. That means she has gone from slightly ahead to really far far ahead, in terms of her earning potential. Should I get a politician to write to the papers complaining on my behalf?

    It's now possible for people to share childcare more equitably, but men still can't bear children or breastfeed, so women will spend time away from the workplace, if they have children. That time may only be a couple of months, but it adds up in terms of lost experience.

    Of course, the real reason for the fuss is that it gives mathematically illiterate politicians the chance to look like they're supporting an underdog. Where is the fuss about the gender skew in terms of biological science, nursing or midwifery? Where is the fuss about the gender death gap? Hence all the gentle joshing about means and averages upstream in this thread. You can make stats say anything you want, if you try hard enough and think you have something to gain from manipulating the data.
    Historically, yes. But the advent of shared parental leave should enable this to be equalised and for men and women to share the traditional "maternity leave" period and two-earner families and 30 hours free childcare will make it easier for both parents/guardians to work whilst the children are growing up. Shared parental leave will also remove the incentive to not employ women as you might "lose" them to having a child - with it becoming almost as likely to lose a man.

    Therefore fewer women will be forced out of/voluntarily leave the workforce to have children and progression will become more equal and the "pay gap" will close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Historically, yes. But the advent of shared parental leave should enable this to be equalised and for men and women to share the traditional "maternity leave" period and two-earner families and 30 hours free childcare will make it easier for both parents/guardians to work whilst the children are growing up. Shared parental leave will also remove the incentive to not employ women as you might "lose" them to having a child - with it becoming almost as likely to lose a man.

    Therefore fewer women will be forced out of/voluntarily leave the workforce to have children and progression will become more equal and the "pay gap" will close.
    Sure, but not for another 20 years or so. Once the current skew in the gender make-up of the high-earning population is gone, the pay gap as defined by gender will also go. Assuming that outcomes for people in other fields of endeavour are similarly uninfluenced by gender. Like going to university, for example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-thinktank-men
    Last edited by Ihatecamping; 05-04-2018 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
    Do all men want to be in senior roles? Do all women? Is the proportion of men who want to be in senior roles different to the proportion of women who do? The gender pay gap analysis ignores all of these questions, as does the suggestion that companies should "do something about it."

    An interesting statistic for this discussion goes: the "freer" a woman is to choose to go into STEM, the less likely she is to do so.... https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...n-stem/553592/

    Women should have the same opportunities as men to pick a career, be free from abuse during it, and to progress as far can on their technical merits. I'm not sure a 50:50 split at all levels would be the result of that, and making that 50:50 split your aim, is not necessarily the best idea.
    To be fair I never mentioned a 50/50 aim. I work in financial services which is one of the most disparate sectors and from what I see women are definitely under represented at a senior level. For example in the company I work for nearly 80% of staff if the upper quartile are men. I don't believe that is purely down to more men wanting to do those roles than women.

    What is useful is getting companies to look past any concious or subconscious biases when hiring, particularly on senior roles, and I think that whilst this pay gap data isn't a solution in itself it might help to achieve that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon.md View Post
    To be fair I never mentioned a 50/50 aim. I work in financial services which is one of the most disparate sectors and from what I see women are definitely under represented at a senior level. For example in the company I work for nearly 80% of staff if the upper quartile are men. I don't believe that is purely down to more men wanting to do those roles than women.

    What is useful is getting companies to look past any concious or subconscious biases when hiring, particularly on senior roles, and I think that whilst this pay gap data isn't a solution in itself it might help to achieve that.
    You didn't. Most of the media coverage does though. It seems to be the stated aim of requiring the disclosure. Other than that I agree with everything you say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    So what else is it down to if not gender? If you mean its because men tend to have more senior/higher paying roles than I am afraid that fact is still down to gender.
    Well that is easy.

    There are so many other things such as age, occupation, interest, personality, agreeableness etc.

    There are other reasons also. Such as life choices. Women tend to choose family over careers. They also tend to choose low paid careers. Women also have to make life choices faster than men. Due to social pressures and natural biology a lot of women have the family/career dilemma. Most women choose family in their late-twenties, early thirties.

    We have complete gender equality of opportunity within this country. It has been illegal for many decades now to advertise a job that excludes people based on their gender. But equality of outcome cannot ever be achieved without huge government pressure and legislation. Look at primary school teachers. The opportunity is there for men and women to apply for these roles. However the outcome is massively heavy on the female side of things. The same can be said for nursing or if you want to flip it for men in building site labouring. If you want equality of outcome then you would live in a country that forces people into jobs that they do not want to do.

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    It's partly also down to people's past decisions.

    A CEO is going to be at least 55, in order to have the kind of experience necessary to run a large company successfully. This means that he and his wife were starting a family around 1988, when conditions weren't the same as they are now. It's highly likely that they would have decided that she should give up her job to look after the kids, while he concentrated on work. His reward for hard work and talent is a high salary; hers is a family and perhaps a part-time job now they're all away from home. that shows up as a gender pay gap, whereas both parties knew what they were doing.
    This timing applies to my family- and many of our generation. Although not all men end up as high paid CEO's etc
    There are other reasons also. Such as life choices. Women tend to choose family over careers. They also tend to choose low paid careers.
    Low paid careers- why is nursing, which requires a degree these days and a lot of technical competence plus shift work and stress, low paid? Probably because it is a 'women's job'... I'm sure there are other jobs which have better pay and don't require the same level of skills etc.

    I am a nurse and part time worker now, although for a long time I was a stay at home mum after I had my kids, starting in 1988

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