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Thread: Gender Pay Gap Data

  1. #31
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nele View Post
    It's partly also down to people's past decisions.



    This timing applies to my family- and many of our generation. Although not all men end up as high paid CEO's etc

    Low paid careers- why is nursing, which requires a degree these days and a lot of technical competence plus shift work and stress, low paid? Probably because it is a 'women's job'... I'm sure there are other jobs which have better pay and don't require the same level of skills etc.

    I am a nurse and part time worker now, although for a long time I was a stay at home mum after I had my kids, starting in 1988
    If a job is low-paid (and this is down to perspective) then that is down to simple supply and demand.

  2. #32
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    One difficulty is a sort of herded mentality. Statistically there's v ery few male primary school teachers, but our local school has around 30% males, finding that having a few already attracts others whereas a school with none will find few men apply to be the first.

    Conversely I work in the legal profession which traditionally is male dominated at higher levels. Our firm however is 75% female at the highest level, female dominated at junior management level and at professional levels. However we'd show females being paid less on average than males because the support staff is also female dominated (99%). Unless we can somehow recruit a lot of male typists and PA's from zero applicants its hard to see how we can resolve our pay gap, unless we start paying female secretaries the same as male solicitors just to deal with the averaging problem. That's why just publishing bald gender pay stats can be unhelpful
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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  4. #33
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon.md View Post
    To be fair I never mentioned a 50/50 aim. I work in financial services which is one of the most disparate sectors and from what I see women are definitely under represented at a senior level. For example in the company I work for nearly 80% of staff if the upper quartile are men. I don't believe that is purely down to more men wanting to do those roles than women.

    What is useful is getting companies to look past any concious or subconscious biases when hiring, particularly on senior roles, and I think that whilst this pay gap data isn't a solution in itself it might help to achieve that.

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    Same. Yet interestingly I have always had a female boss or my bosses boss has been female. But that could be because I work in a non-client facing (though increasingly important) area - and in my current firm, the CEO is female.
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  5. #34
    Senior Member oneiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    If a job is low-paid (and this is down to perspective) then that is down to simple supply and demand.
    Um... I don't believe the relatively low pay of degree-qualified nurses is anything to do with supply and demand.

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  7. #35
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneiros View Post
    Um... I don't believe the relatively low pay of degree-qualified nurses is anything to do with supply and demand.
    I would hazard a guess that it’s related to UK nurses working in a state monopoly, which uses an outdated funding model based on 1940’s ideas. Although I’d like to know the wage differentials in other, comparable countries.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  8. #36
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneiros View Post
    Um... I don't believe the relatively low pay of degree-qualified nurses is anything to do with supply and demand.
    Oh it is. If people stopped becoming nurses due to the pay not being enough then pay would gonup to entice people to apply.

    It is as reliable a gravity.

  9. #37
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Oh it is. If people stopped becoming nurses due to the pay not being enough then pay would gonup to entice people to apply.

    It is as reliable a gravity.
    Not if there is an inexhaustible supply of labour from outside of the UK, to fill the gaps.

    'Inexhaustible' in this case means 'just enough nurses from India, The Philippines, Ireland, Poland, Spain, Portugal and Italy to make up the gaps because the wages here are so much more than they can get at home and they are able to live frugally and send some money home in the meantime'.

    So yes, supply and demand is governing the wages of nurses in the NHS. Open borders keep wages low.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Oh it is. If people stopped becoming nurses due to the pay not being enough then pay would gonup to entice people to apply.

    It is as reliable a gravity.
    Hasn't worked to date. Reports on nurse shortage happen regularly and the health trusts recruit from overseas rather than increasing pay. Or they end up paying higher costs to agency nurses rather than increasing pay to their employees.

  12. #39
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Hasn't worked to date. Reports on nurse shortage happen regularly and the health trusts recruit from overseas rather than increasing pay. Or they end up paying higher costs to agency nurses rather than increasing pay to their employees.
    Do they have the power to increase pay? If, say, Hartlepool increased wages for nurses by 20%, they might have enough nurses, but there wouldn't be very many in Newcastle. At least until the next plane came in from Manila. And what would their bosses in Government have to say about that?
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  13. #40
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Not if there is an inexhaustible supply of labour from outside of the UK, to fill the gaps.

    'Inexhaustible' in this case means 'just enough nurses from India, The Philippines, Ireland, Poland, Spain, Portugal and Italy to make up the gaps because the wages here are so much more than they can get at home and they are able to live frugally and send some money home in the meantime'.

    So yes, supply and demand is governing the wages of nurses in the NHS. Open borders keep wages low.
    I agree completely but people complain about low wages but want an endless supply of labour.

    The two are linked and that cannot be denied. The reasons can be debated but if you starve the market of anything, demand will go up and so will the price.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    Hasn't worked to date. Reports on nurse shortage happen regularly and the health trusts recruit from overseas rather than increasing pay. Or they end up paying higher costs to agency nurses rather than increasing pay to their employees.
    you have prooved my point. Their are plenty if options out there to cover things.

  14. #41
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    Some of the comments above completely ignore any notion of political doctrine in terms of things like low wage economies etc.

    Its not as simple as supply and demand.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    So yes, supply and demand is governing the wages of nurses in the NHS. Open borders keep wages low.
    As already mentioned, due to the NHS being a bit of a closed loop system - this is purely a political decision.

    They could pay more, but there's that adage about knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

  15. #42
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    As a few people have said you can do what you want with statistics.

    There was a discussion on TV the other day and they took one of the airlines as an example (think it may have been Ryanair or Jet2 or similar).

    The discussion went along the lines of there being a massive difference between male and female pay.

    When looked at further it was because there were far more male pilots than female. It appears that in the same job both get the same but because there are more males it pushes the average up.

    It was then suggested that to even things up they needed more female pilots.

    So if women don't want to be pilots how does that work.

    The same can be said of coal mining, heavy steel industry etc. Women are less likely to be attracted to these jobs.

    A few years ago it was race - too few black and Asian Police Officers. So how you you facilitate that. First the job entry requirements were changed to allow shorter people with different qualifications etc. This didn't make lots of black and Asian people decide to join the police force - numbers did increase but not to the level that was expected.

    The same will be the case for gender.

    I agree that a woman doing the same job as a man and vice versa should be paid the same but that is equal pay not the gender pay gap.

  16. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    As a few people have said you can do what you want with statistics.

    There was a discussion on TV the other day and they took one of the airlines as an example (think it may have been Ryanair or Jet2 or similar).

    The discussion went along the lines of there being a massive difference between male and female pay.

    When looked at further it was because there were far more male pilots than female. It appears that in the same job both get the same but because there are more males it pushes the average up.

    It was then suggested that to even things up they needed more female pilots.

    So if women don't want to be pilots how does that work.

    The same can be said of coal mining, heavy steel industry etc. Women are less likely to be attracted to these jobs.

    A few years ago it was race - too few black and Asian Police Officers. So how you you facilitate that. First the job entry requirements were changed to allow shorter people with different qualifications etc. This didn't make lots of black and Asian people decide to join the police force - numbers did increase but not to the level that was expected.

    The same will be the case for gender.

    I agree that a woman doing the same job as a man and vice versa should be paid the same but that is equal pay not the gender pay gap.
    I think its probably a societal problem. Why do some jobs have a gender cachet attached to them at all? Is it down to how those jobs are sold, or (dare I say), is it down to the gnarly topic of gender stereotyping?

  17. #44
    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    A few years ago it was race - too few black and Asian Police Officers. So how you you facilitate that. First the job entry requirements were changed to allow shorter people with different qualifications etc. This didn't make lots of black and Asian people decide to join the police force - numbers did increase but not to the level that was expected.

    The same will be the case for gender.

    I agree that a woman doing the same job as a man and vice versa should be paid the same but that is equal pay not the gender pay gap.
    In this case, they stopped accepting applications from white men. This is what my brother in law was told; his application was delayed by a couple of years while they met their quota. Of course his case wasn't helped by the fact he was male, white, 6'2", built like the proverbial and university educated. Highly unlikely to be any use to the police service.

    This is the subtext of the gender pay gap conversation. People, independently, are making the 'wrong' decisions. Not enough women digging coal, not enough men working in care homes. This cannot be 'corrected' by allowing people to make their own choices, so the State must take over.

    Otherwise, what is this discussion all about? We already have equal pay legislation, and have had for decades. The problem is the historical legacy of old white men earning more than younger women. There is no equitable way to change this. It is a continuation of the fight by people who have actually achieved most of the objectives of the feminist movement, but who must keep struggling in order to justify their political positions.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

  18. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    It is a continuation of the fight by people who have actually achieved most of the objectives of the feminist movement, but who must keep struggling in order to justify their political positions.
    Oooft.

    Totally ignores the stigmas attached to certain occupations.

    Which of course works both ways.

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