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Thread: Gender Pay Gap Data

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Oooft.

    Totally ignores the stigmas attached to certain occupations.

    Which of course works both ways.
    I'll leave you to persuade the female population that more male midwives would be a good thing in the interests of equality.... "I'm not havin a man dealing with me down there..."
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    I'll leave you to persuade the female population that more male midwives would be a good thing in the interests of equality.... "I'm not havin a man dealing with me down there..."
    But would they be happy with a man if their title was Doctor or Consultant?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    it is not as simple as many make out, there are not all that many equal jobs in alot of companies.

    At work, we have a woman and a bloke doing different jobs. But both are doing something a bit similar. ish. If anything, the woman's work is more important and certainly generates more revenue.

    We discovered last week that the woman is on 5 grand less. 32k v 27k.

    I need to find a way to bring this up with the directors because it is morally wrong but it is perfectly legal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    I'll leave you to persuade the female population that more male midwives would be a good thing in the interests of equality.... "I'm not havin a man dealing with me down there..."
    there were men and women dealing with my wife 'down there'. At no point during labour did the presence of a winkle on the doctors etc worry my wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Oooft.
    Every day's a school day.

    https://www.internetslang.com/OOFT-m...definition.asp

    So, really impressed, or pretending to be impressed? I'm tending towards Option 2...
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    it is not as simple as many make out, there are not all that many equal jobs in alot of companies.

    At work, we have a woman and a bloke doing different jobs. But both are doing something a bit similar. ish. If anything, the woman's work is more important and certainly generates more revenue.

    We discovered last week that the woman is on 5 grand less. 32k v 27k.

    I need to find a way to bring this up with the directors because it is morally wrong but it is perfectly legal.
    Why is it morally wrong. It could be down to absolutely anything. Age, experience, personality, client view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    Every day's a school day.

    https://www.internetslang.com/OOFT-m...definition.asp

    So, really impressed, or pretending to be impressed? I'm tending towards Option 2...
    It was more onomatopoeic.

  9. #52
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Why is it morally wrong. It could be down to absolutely anything. Age, experience, personality, client view.
    nope, it is because they offered the bloke more. She is older, she has been here longer and she earns less.

    Trust me... in this case, it is just wrong.

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    In my experience, companies pay as little as they can get away with for as long as possible. It usually means incumbents are paid less for the same work as the newbie. At least, in the private sector.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    I'll leave you to persuade the female population that more male midwives would be a good thing in the interests of equality.... "I'm not havin a man dealing with me down there..."
    Hold on a sec.

    That isn't an occupational stigma, I'd say that was a personal imperative between patient and practitioner.* They're not the same thing at all. Even if it was, I did say it worked both ways.

    I'd also offer the thought - what percentage of gynaecologists are male? And let me unholster my wooden spoon for a moment - assuming you're a chap, are you not rather putting words into the mouths of our female compatriots?

    One of the problems we have at the moment is an inability to recognise nuance and the concomitant need for compromise. Everything needs to be packaged as this or that or all or nothing.

    Its tough on an internet message board, but you need to credit people with some nous - at least until they've proven its not warranted.



    *Thinking about it, it may be a bit of both...

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    Senior Member Ihatecamping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    nope, it is because they offered the bloke more. She is older, she has been here longer and she earns less.

    Trust me... in this case, it is just wrong.
    If you watch the famous Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman interview, he goes on about 'reasonableness'; women are more reasonable than men in the business environment, and thereby lose out.

    I don't know the specifics of course, but it's a decent guess the she said, 'Can I please have 30k?, No? OK, 27k would be fine.', whereas he said, 'Give me 32k or I'll go elsewhere'.
    The long march through the institutions is nearly complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihatecamping View Post
    I don't know the specifics of course, but it's a decent guess the she said, 'Can I please have 30k?, No? OK, 27k would be fine.', whereas he said, 'Give me 32k or I'll go elsewhere'.
    Or maybe she'd been with the company for some years, receiving a crappy annual increment; then he came in later and was given the current 'market value'...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hold on a sec.

    That isn't an occupational stigma, I'd say that was a personal imperative between patient and practitioner.* They're not the same thing at all. Even if it was, I did say it worked both ways.

    I'd also offer the thought - what percentage of gynaecologists are male? And let me unholster my wooden spoon for a moment - assuming you're a chap, are you not rather putting words into the mouths of our female compatriots?

    One of the problems we have at the moment is an inability to recognise nuance and the concomitant need for compromise. Everything needs to be packaged as this or that or all or nothing.

    Its tough on an internet message board, but you need to credit people with some nous - at least until they've proven its not warranted.



    *Thinking about it, it may be a bit of both...
    To be fair that was almost entirely said in jest.

    To some extent I disagree with you that its all or nothing. Currently on one hand we've got a lot of discussion of gender pay gaps, and inequality to women who should be treated equally, but at the same time there is a vocal campaign against transgender self identification proposals because of the need to protect the special needs of women (their own safety etc from "men"). I think that sort of thing creates confusion - its one thing to campaign for equality, its a bit harder to campaign for equality with special bits. Once you start to introduce compromise you're back to the same sort of subjective judgement that leads to discrimination albeit inadvertent.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    To be fair that was almost entirely said in jest.

    To some extent I disagree with you that its all or nothing. Currently on one hand we've got a lot of discussion of gender pay gaps, and inequality to women who should be treated equally, but at the same time there is a vocal campaign against transgender self identification proposals because of the need to protect the special needs of women (their own safety etc from "men"). I think that sort of thing creates confusion - its one thing to campaign for equality, its a bit harder to campaign for equality with special bits. Once you start to introduce compromise you're back to the same sort of subjective judgement that leads to discrimination albeit inadvertent.
    Hard to tell on here when people are jesting. A liberal smattering of winking smileys can denote intent.

    The all or nothing comment wasn't really about this particular topic, more a comment about how the great roiling mass seems to want easy answers. As we know, life isn't rarely so straightforward, but if they can parse a thing then file it away - then great. Unfortunately that often means it gets simplified to the extent that it's no longer representative of the premise from which it came.

    I've mostly decided not to have an opinion on the whole gender self-identification men/women thing - its too gnarly - except to say; compromise is everything, and subjectivity is always aided by reason.

    I think sometimes, in our rush to have an opinion on a given topic, we forget to stop and wonder if we need to have one in the first place.


    Edit* I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but in terms of 'special needs of woman(their own safety etc from "men")', there is ample evidence to support this being an incontrovertible need. There is a definite and identifiable problem with regard to violence on women by men - not all men, but it's there. I'm not sure provision for women in these instances would come under the heading 'equality with special bits' But, I'm sure that's not what you meant. /Edit.
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 06-04-2018 at 12:25 PM.

  18. #59
    Senior Member Rikki01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    nope, it is because they offered the bloke more. She is older, she has been here longer and she earns less.

    Trust me... in this case, it is just wrong.
    Sounds to me she is just more agreeable. If she asks she would probably get a pay rise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    Currently on one hand we've got a lot of discussion of gender pay gaps, and inequality to women who should be treated equally, but at the same time there is a vocal campaign against transgender self identification proposals because of the need to protect the special needs of women (their own safety etc from "men"). I think that sort of thing creates confusion - its one thing to campaign for equality, its a bit harder to campaign for equality with special bits.

    What?!!?!?

    As I understand it, the issue over gender self-identification and use of women's facilities is to do with the concern that it will provide the opportunity for surreptitious videoing and abuse of women by people who are biologically male. I can't see how the desire to be protected from than somehow invalidates a desire for equal pay. Are you suggesting that women should settle for one or the other? Does freedom from abuse come at the cost of lower pay?

    I'm really struggling to see how these two issues are related.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki01 View Post
    Sounds to me she is just more agreeable. If she asks she would probably get a pay rise.
    Because it couldn't possibly be down to gender discrimination. Let's blame the woman for not asking hard enough.

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