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Thread: POR Rule 3.41 (c):The Group Scout Leader may not hold any other appointment ...

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    POR Rule 3.41 (c):The Group Scout Leader may not hold any other appointment ...

    I was just wondering how many groups are breaking Rule 3.41 (c):

    "
    Rule 3.41 Limitation on the number of Appointments held

    a. No Manager, Leader or Supporter may hold more than one appointment unless able to carry out
    all the duties of more than one appointment satisfactorily.

    b. The District Commissioner must give approval for any person to hold more than one appointment
    and, if the appointments are to be held in more than one District or County, the approval of all the
    Commissioners concerned must be obtained.

    c. The Group Scout Leader may not hold any other appointment in the Scout Group other than
    Training Adviser.
    "

    It seams to me to be a very silly rule. It would be OK (although rather meaningless) if it had "unless able to carry out
    all the duties of more than one appointment satisfactorily." appended to it.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Silly until they're a Cub leader too and spend the groups money on kit that the cubs need but argues over every penny for the other sections.

    One of my AESLs is also GSL (well, AGSL officially), our Network leader is also a GSL, but then they are group and district appointments, so only (a) applies.
    Ian Wilkins
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    No.... it is there for a reason.

    It prevents the GSL also being Chair, Sec, Treas (other Leaders cannot either).

    It prevents the GSL being the Leader of a Section as from a Group perspective the GSL has enough to manage and possibly arbitrate and cannot do that if they are also the Section leader of one of the sections.

    Do note though that it says Group - so there are GSLs who also run Explorers as they are not part of the Group. A GSL can also be an ADC or many other roles. It is just that they need to keep Group management responsibilities separate from section responsibilities - see how many issues are raised on here where the GSL is running a section and there are issues or a section Leader is also acting as GSL - it does not work.

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Why is it silly? It doesn't stop the GSL performing other roles if/as required, just from holding appointments as such.

    To be honest, a GSL role done well is unlikely to leave them with enough time to run a section every single week and vice versa - the rule serves a very sensible purpose of, a) preventing well-meaning GSLs from overworking themselves, b) ensuring that a GSL is able to take a Group-wide view of scouting, c) encouraging GSLs to seek new volunteers to fill roles, and d) preventing GSLs dominating a Group by formally running a section and the group.
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    Yup, if they're being a GSL and a Beaver Leader, they've probably not got the time to go find a new Beaver leader.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    I can see a benefit in a GSL retaining front line connection with sections by being present during sessions, camps etc - which the rules do nothing to prevent. That much is sensible because there may be times when they need to act as section leader during a vacancy etc but their inability to formally take on that role leaves a gap present which they should be continually trying to fill. The gap remains open in Compass etc such that anyone wanting to review the group from outside can immediately see that there is such a vacancy and can then ask the GSL what they are doing to fill it.

    In fact it may be useful to allow "acting" roles subject to 6 monthly review by say the DC. So for example if my group had a vacancy for Treasurer, I as CSL (and an accountant by profession) could "act" and be recorded as such on Compass (partly for contact purposes) but at the 6 month point someone should be chasing the group to get a proper appointment in place. (I know that is probably the most controversial example given the potential for financial abuse but it could be done if say the acting Treasurer wasn't an account signatory but was just keeping the records etc).
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Yup, if they're being a GSL and a Beaver Leader, they've probably not got the time to go find a new Beaver leader.
    But, being GSL and temporarly running the Colony is a good use of their time. POR prevents the GSL from being appointed as BSL but there is nothing to stop a GSL running the colony.


    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    But, being GSL and temporarly running the Colony is a good use of their time. POR prevents the GSL from being appointed as BSL but there is nothing to stop a GSL running the colony.
    True, but finding a new BSL is also a good use of their time.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    Rule 3.41 Limitation on the number of Appointments held

    b. The District Commissioner must give approval for any person to hold more than one appointment and, if the appointments are to be held in more than one District or County, the approval of all the Commissioners concerned must be obtained.


    I think you may be misreading POR 3.41b. The rule is very explicit - the District Commissioner MUST GIVE APPROVAL for any person to hold more than one appointment. Therefore, the DC has no choice but to authorise the additional appointments as POR clearly states that the DC must give their approval - any DC not giving their approval is not following POR.

    Unless, of course, POR meant to say that the approval of the DC was required. But if that was the case surely this would have been corrected many years ago.


    Paul

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    It means the latter, it's one of the many things that is badly worded in POR

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    The spirit is clear, even if the wording is not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The spirit is clear, even if the wording is not.
    Careful, wild statements like that could seriously damage the legal profession
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

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    I am not sure that I really buy some of the arguments that have been given in favour of this rule.

    Why single out the role of the GSL?

    Conflict of interest - prioritising their own section? There are other checks and balances in place to prevent an overbearing GSL from favouring a particular section. The Exec should be overseeing spending. The DC should be keeping an eye on the behaviour of the GSL. I don't think that a blanket ban on someone being both a GSL and a Cub Leader is a proportionate way of dealing with such people.

    Conflict of interest - exec roles? This one is legitimate but it should be limited to a GSL not being allowed to take on any Ex-oficio roles.

    Over work? Is a POR rule really the place to deal with this one? Why single out the GSL role. Surely someone performing mutiple other roles are just as worthy of protection.

    To ensure they have enough time to perform the role? Again is a POR rule really the place for such things? We do not have such rules for other roles - what about the District TA? If they are also running a Section they may not have time to perform their other role - but POR does not prevent them from trying. What about people that run Beavers, Cubs and Scouts because there is onone else volunteering? Should POR ban this too?

    We have an appointment structure place that enables an assessment of someones capability to perform the roles they take on. My District Appointments Committee grilled me mercilessly when I said that I was prepared to be GSL but only if I could continue being the Cub Leader too. Why have a particular rule for the GSL role that takes away their judgement in this one case?

    The argument that it is just about the appointment and not about performing the role just shows up what a silly rule it is. It would suggest that it is OK for someone to perform the roles (which presumably the rule is their to prevent) just as long as they do not have the appointment in Compass - how pointless is that! If it is really about enabling the DC to see that there are roles that need to be performed then add a flag in Compass to mark a role as vacant - no need for a POR rule.

    Such a rule would appear to come from the old days of very structured, inflexible volunteering. The world has moved on and I can see no argument for why the GSL role should be singled out in such a manner. By all means issue guidance to the Appointments Committees that such arrangements are not advisable, but there is no need for a specific rule. At least I can not see the justification for it.

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    I am going to be a GSL and AESL soon (change of role is in progress will be making the transition in Sept), luckily that is allowable within the rules as AESL is not an appointment within the Group.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Assistant Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I am not sure that I really buy some of the arguments that have been given in favour of this rule.

    Why single out the role of the GSL?
    Because it is one of the largest roles in Scouting? It's a recognition of the size and importance of the role.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Secretary and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
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