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Thread: POR Rule 3.41 (c):The Group Scout Leader may not hold any other appointment ...

  1. #61
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    We have a sizeable training overhead that we expect volunteers to take on as a price for their service yet the organisation can't summon enough resource to make it painless to do. It wants its cake and to eat it - it wants to be able to claim that its leaders are all comprehensively trained but it also wants to be able to claim the numbers of young people that can only be accommodated if it allows untrained leaders to carry on leading sessions.
    When we set up Navigators, it happened that we inherited a full team of fully trained adults. It did cross my mind that if we were to develop any sort of continuity we would need to address some training issues. After all, we had all jumped through hoops in Scouts.

    At the same time as having been trained in Scouts we saw others, trained to the same standard by the same people, just wing it any old way they fancied. That made me consider that the training was less valid than we initially supposed.

    Anyoldhoo, four years down the line we are starting to pick up new adults, and there is an interesting development. They are learning by osmosis. As they settle in they start to do more, they start to follow the game plan, they learn at their own pace. They do question, they do want to do things differently - and that is okay. However, they learn the bulk of the skills and knowledge by doing alongside long term Leaders.

    Yes, there is a risk that they will pick up bad practices - but from what I have seen, that is a risk despite all the Scout Association training anyway.

    Maybe there is a need to lighten the load on training and focus on delivery.
    Ewan Scott

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  3. #62
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    I understand what HQ are trying to do, and why. I dare say that in some places, it might even work.

    But where we are, it never has.

    I'd be interested to know how many of the district/regional positions are filled, and if anyone is actually recording how many new leaders are doing the training and how long they stay on for. I'd also be interested to know what the turn over of adult volunteers is like.

    I wonder if the leader churn is higher with the new system than it was with the old one... We can't measure it where we are, because historically, the training was never an issue because we had no district to manage it, (although we still have a churn in the younger sections...)

  4. #63
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Of course, throwing the current training scheme away and saying "shadow experienced leaders" only works when said experienced leaders are available to shadow. When there's the ol' "my little Smiffy is leaving at the end of term and so so am I" and there's a mad scramble for a new leader just to keep things going, then it's sink or swim time for the new leader. Not sure the module training is a massive help in this case either.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    I would go as far as to say, the modules may even be counter productive - and give an inaccurate impression of what Scouting is all about. Outside of POR itself, I can't think of anything you couldn't learn on on-the-job training with another leader team that had a proven track record in Scouting - as opposed to a trainer in a classroom, say. I wouldn't want leaders who didn't ask questions, or didn't feel they could - it should be encouraged.

    OK so you opt for on the job training with a leader team with proven track record ........

    Do these Leaders want to spend time training someone else. Do they have time to do this? Does the trainee have time for the extra sessions out.

    Who decides which Groups have suitable Leaders to do this.

    I won't knock it, but it just creates another set of issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    OK so you opt for on the job training with a leader team with proven track record ........

    Do these Leaders want to spend time training someone else. Do they have time to do this? Does the trainee have time for the extra sessions out.

    Who decides which Groups have suitable Leaders to do this.

    I won't knock it, but it just creates another set of issues.
    No, I think that's where the predominance of training should take place.

    Decent leaders tend to be keen leaders, realistically, how much extra work will this entail? The leader team will get an extra hand for a few weeks, we're talking mostly observation and working in an existing team - even we could accommodate that on a Thursday night. Realistically, we're only talking about people actually wanting to get a wood badge - not everyone who puts their hand up.

    Do you think we couldn't take on new leaders for our own group because we wouldn't be able to find the time to train them either?

    In terms of what groups do it? (Here's another chicken and egg argument - if it works for you, it works for me)... The DC can decide - the DC has his or her finger on the pulse so should know what group would be best placed to do this right? Or leaders/groups could even put their hands up, we're supposed to be a member of the world-wide family etc etc etc...

    I never said training wouldn't be onerous, but there are levels - and currently not only is it too onerous, its so onerous - I'd posit - many districts aren't even adhering to the current set up.

    Ironically, TSA wants this fancy training scheme with trained leaders - but doesn't do on the job training...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Of course, throwing the current training scheme away and saying "shadow experienced leaders" only works when said experienced leaders are available to shadow. When there's the ol' "my little Smiffy is leaving at the end of term and so so am I" and there's a mad scramble for a new leader just to keep things going, then it's sink or swim time for the new leader. Not sure the module training is a massive help in this case either.
    We all have longer term leaders in our districts though, somewhere...

    We have that mad scramble for leaders when kids leave anyway, I think the point is, the whole thing will be less onerous, so more conducive to leaders staying on - perhaps even if their sprog has moved on.

    Probably nothing we can do about leaders who leave with their kids - but, as I understand it, they wouldn't need to do the training anyway due to the time limits?

  9. #66
    Senior Member oneiros's Avatar
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    Rule 4.43 Limitation of holding more than one Appointment
    c. The District Commissioner may not hold any other appointment, other than in a short term ‘acting’ capacity or as a Training Adviser.
    Short term? LMFAO!

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    Kastor (07-08-2018)

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    I totally agree that a lot of Scouting can be learned "on the job". However, I would worry that it would lead to even more myths about the "local rules".

    Lets say im a new leader to Scouting. I have the option of doing Module 1 online, or going on a course. Lets also say I can go and do the training by shadowing a local group for a couple of weeks and learning from them.

    If I go online, I will get all the facts, as per POR and the official HQ line. I wont learn about any myths, local rules, or other things i shouldnt be learning. But i also can't ask any questions and wont get to meet other leaders.

    If i go on the course I will hopefully get a fairly accurate version of what HQ intended. A bad trainer might ruin this by adding in things that aren't actually true (e.g. "you need a consent form for a camp" because they believe them to be true. On the other hand I'll meet other leaders, ask questions, etc. I'll probably get more out of it, but the risk of the content being inaccurate is higher.

    If I go to shadow another group, i'll have lots of time to ask questions, and i'll find out about real world scouting - but i'll find out how that group does it, along with any local rules etc. The grassroots leaders might not know which "rules" are from POR, which are local rules invented by the DC, which are group policies, and which are just myths. So i'll get told that i have to go on a course to get a nights away permit, i'll get told that we're not allowed to take the Scouts paddling in the sea, i'll get told that i need a consent form for photographs, and i'll get told that we're only insured when wearing neckers.

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  13. #68
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    I try to "steer people" towards doing module one face to face in a small group. It makes it possible to add in things that have come out of Gillwell but are not yet put into the online version. It also means that how our District and County is organised
    can be explained.

    I agree that doing it "on the job" has potential problems. In some cases it would be fine. In others I fear that it would lead to bad practice being passed on. I remember a Leader who was surprised to learn about reporting accidents for example.....

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