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Thread: Girlguiding "membership withdrawals"

  1. #16
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    I thought it odd that on TV they interviewed a woman who said she would not let her daughters join Guides if there were transgender members (not that she would be told) as she didn't think it right boys sleeping in the same tent as girls there may be sexual contact which could result in pregnancy.

    Where have we heard that before.

    I understand from the guidance that the transgender child should be allowed the accommodation that best suits them after discussion. I further think that a male who is identifying as female and trying to come to terms with that is highly unlikely to want to get into that situation with a female.

    I also think it odd that whilst the parent worries about sexual contact with a male who identifies as female she didn't seem to worry about sexual contact from another female member. Not that in a tent of more than the two of them that would be likely to happen.

    Some parents just don't think things through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    They are children. They are not of an age to be deliberate sexual predators.
    You don't have to Google overly far to find headlines that suggest this isn't the case.

    I think, if you drilled right down into it (and if it were possible to accept a compromise position), parents are probably more concerned about adult volunteers than youth members. I don't think - with a little information - they'd have a problem with trans-youth members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Well I surveyed 100% of those who have been involved in girl guiding in my house, and that teenage girl said "but they're girls". Not sure you have to try and be "woke" and virtue signalling with a parent, except if you seek to annoy, but I'm pretty sure that was just her honest opinion.

    I guess it's one of those where your finishing point, of female trans kids and adults being accepted into guides, depends on your start point of whether trans is a thing, whether it's just an mental problem, whether it's just an excuse to get near girls, whether all men are rapists, or whether you just accept female trans as female. The end result of what's the right thing to do vis-a-vis girlguiding flows from that.

    I did find some "quality" comment on mumsnet. Some unhappy bunnies on there.
    I regularly speak with Scouts about internet safety. The level of trust have in people they've never met or ever will, is worrying, by which I mean, they don't even think about it.

    I dare say young people won't have a problem with it, but they don't have the experience adults do.

    Trans is definitely a thing - hundreds (thousands?) of normal people going about their day are trans - but as with everything where humans are involved, there will be those who either deliberately seek to take advantage or those who end up doing so unintentionally. Again, you don't have to Google too far to find headlines providing examples. Taking Guides purely by itself - it probably isn't a problem, but since that isn't possible, you also need to consider the wider implications.

    There is a violent reactionary element to the trans-right crowd. It's on the fringes, but they are mainstream groups that present themselves as trans-rights activist groups - and they're seeking to shut down any opposition from women's and lesbian's groups - occasionally with violence and legal action.

    There's very little room for compromise, and I think that's what people have issues with - on both sides as it happens.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    You don't have to Google overly far to find headlines that suggest this isn't the case.

    I think, if you drilled right down into it (and if it were possible to accept a compromise position), parents are probably more concerned about adult volunteers than youth members. I don't think - with a little information - they'd have a problem with trans-youth members.
    I never even heard of such a situation with adult trans people, let alone children - it's just the sort of hysteria that the Christian Right (which are neither) raise in the US on the issue of trans people being able to use the appropriate bathroom for their gender.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Rush View Post
    It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.
    ...and what percentage thought they shouldn't be discriminated against because of their sex/gender, and how does that translate into their opinion of GG membership policy?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I regularly speak with Scouts about internet safety. The level of trust have in people they've never met or ever will, is worrying, by which I mean, they don't even think about it.
    And most of us on this here escouts have never met.
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    What this is really about is the same issue discussed on the Darth Vader post last week. Diversity of thought is no longer allowed. Like someone else said further up the page it is getting very dangerous to express a view other than one you have been told is right... I always thought our movements were a broad church open to all except the extremes (BNP etc,) this is no longer the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Well I surveyed 100% of those who have been involved in girl guiding in my house, and that teenage girl said "but they're girls". Not sure you have to try and be "woke" and virtue signalling with a parent, except if you seek to annoy, but I'm pretty sure that was just her honest opinion.
    I'm pretty young (still student aged) and I think this is a fairly ubiquitous opinion amongst young people. Amongst my peer group (which, granted, consists mainly of middle-class university students) I think I would struggle to find anyone who wouldn't accept anyone as the gender they identify as.

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    I never even heard of such a situation with adult trans people, let alone children - it's just the sort of hysteria that the Christian Right (which are neither) raise in the US on the issue of trans people being able to use the appropriate bathroom for their gender.
    As I said, you can't take this issue with Guiding in isolation.

    For what it's worth, the risk of a trans-kid being a sexual predator is vanishingly tiny, but that isn't what you said - what you said was - They are children. They are not of an age to be deliberate sexual predators. in reply to some else talking about girls joining scouts. What I said was, kids have been known to commit sexual offences. But, since the percentages involved among 'ordinary' kids is so tiny - the chances of it happening with trans-kids... Well, we could also never ever leave the house.

    I suppose I might ask, to the victim, what's the difference between a sexual predator and a deliberate sexual predator?

    Putting specious comparisons to one side, when you break this down - what it seems to be about is women (and in this instance, parents) not being consulted at all on issues surrounding trans-rights. Their interests (and safety), as they see it, are being trashed on the alter of anti-discrimination - which, when you think about it, is not a little ironic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    And most of us on this here escouts have never met.
    EXACTLY!









  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    As I said, you can't take this issue with Guiding in isolation.

    For what it's worth, the risk of a trans-kid being a sexual predator is vanishingly tiny, but that isn't what you said - what you said was - They are children. They are not of an age to be deliberate sexual predators. in reply to some else talking about girls joining scouts. What I said was, kids have been known to commit sexual offences. But, since the percentages involved among 'ordinary' kids is so tiny - the chances of it happening with trans-kids... Well, we could also never ever leave the house.

    I suppose I might ask, to the victim, what's the difference between a sexual predator and a deliberate sexual predator?

    Putting specious comparisons to one side, when you break this down - what it seems to be about is women (and in this instance, parents) not being consulted at all on issues surrounding trans-rights. Their interests (and safety), as they see it, are being trashed on the alter of anti-discrimination - which, when you think about it, is not a little ironic.
    The point is that to be a sexual predator in this situation, a child would need to (a) have that desire, (b) decide the best way to get close to girls to carry it out is to decide to falsely "self-identify" as female, then (c) join Guiding... basically not gonna happen.

    No, the issue isn't consultation with women/parents but transphobes being noisy. Just like homophobes historically were.
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  13. #26
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    Surely their problem arises from the fact that they are a single sex organisation that prohibits male leaders. When Scouting was all boys back in the day, we had lots of female leaders, so when we opened up to girls joining it was a largely friction less transition. The Guides have backed themselves into a corner with ideology that all men are predators. If they had a mixed leader group this would never have been an issue. Inclusive and Diversity are not easy bedfellows when you are a single sex organisation. The issue with self identification of gender is that it is open ended, how many genders are there, there are around 21 at the moment, although no one can agree on a definite number, if they accept self identifying trans gender, do they accept people of both genders, or no gender, or anyone of the multiple flavours that are out there. Once you open the lid of being inclusive, in an exclusive environment you realise you can't pick and choose any more.

  14. #27
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    I always find it strange that an organisation that has a policy of excluding 49% of the UK population is keen on promoting inclusivity.


    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The point is that to be a sexual predator in this situation, a child would need to (a) have that desire, (b) decide the best way to get close to girls to carry it out is to decide to falsely "self-identify" as female, then (c) join Guiding... basically not gonna happen.

    No, the issue isn't consultation with women/parents but transphobes being noisy. Just like homophobes historically were.
    So...

    You've blithely dismissed one side of the debate - which I think is probably the main issue people have. If you just take the time to talk about things, it brings people together and builds consensus - but that hasn't happened on this. The new laws are being bounced into place off the back of anti-discrimination legislation - mostly by folks who are doing exactly what you are, and ignoring huge swathes of public opinion.

    We don't disagree on child sexual predation in this - the chances are so slim, it's certainly worth thinking about, but it's absolutely not worth saying trans-kids can't join Guides of the back of it. However, trans-leaders is another question entirely. I say that after having come across several trans-people who seemed to have quite militant views - they were exactly the type of people who would test GG membership but be entirely unsuitable for the role - not because of their trans-status, but because regardless of their gender identity - they are idiots.

    For what it's worth, my opinion on this is a null value. I have views, but since both sides have right on their side, propped up by reason and valid argument - there is no easy answer.

    I'm not a lady, a lesbian, a trans-person or a member of the GG's - so I reckon it's fine for me to not hold a view, and instead try and stand back a bit and see all sides and recognise - there is no right answer to this as things stand and it may get a wee bit gnarly for GG's. I imagine there will be other resignations/dismissals - and while a lot of those will be people failing to move with the times in a more general sense, it'll also be women with genuine concerns.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    I always find it strange that an organisation that has a policy of excluding 49% of the UK population is keen on promoting inclusivity.


    Paul
    Indeed.

    The elephant in the room. What I said above is in the context of GG's wanting to maintain their current membership policy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    The point is that to be a sexual predator in this situation, a child would need to (a) have that desire, (b) decide the best way to get close to girls to carry it out is to decide to falsely "self-identify" as female, then (c) join Guiding... basically not gonna happen.

    No, the issue isn't consultation with women/parents but transphobes being noisy. Just like homophobes historically were.
    Answering your and another post, there are certainly cases of adult trans sexually attacking women, for example :

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/719715...mates-in-jail/

    I'm afraid that many sexual assaults are carried out by under 16's. I have no idea if the Guides will go through the steps that would be necessary for an adult to male to define themselves as a woman but it's obviously possible. As indeed it's possible for girls to sexually abuse girls.

  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    So...

    You've blithely dismissed one side of the debate - which I think is probably the main issue people have. If you just take the time to talk about things, it brings people together and builds consensus - but that hasn't happened on this. The new laws are being bounced into place off the back of anti-discrimination legislation - mostly by folks who are doing exactly what you are, and ignoring huge swathes of public opinion.

    We don't disagree on child sexual predation in this - the chances are so slim, it's certainly worth thinking about, but it's absolutely not worth saying trans-kids can't join Guides of the back of it. However, trans-leaders is another question entirely. I say that after having come across several trans-people who seemed to have quite militant views - they were exactly the type of people who would test GG membership but be entirely unsuitable for the role - not because of their trans-status, but because regardless of their gender identity - they are idiots.

    For what it's worth, my opinion on this is a null value. I have views, but since both sides have right on their side, propped up by reason and valid argument - there is no easy answer.

    I'm not a lady, a lesbian, a trans-person or a member of the GG's - so I reckon it's fine for me to not hold a view, and instead try and stand back a bit and see all sides and recognise - there is no right answer to this as things stand and it may get a wee bit gnarly for GG's. I imagine there will be other resignations/dismissals - and while a lot of those will be people failing to move with the times in a more general sense, it'll also be women with genuine concerns.
    When the "other side of the debate" amounts to chanting "trans-women are not women", there's nothing to consider.
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