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Thread: Girlguiding "membership withdrawals"

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    When the "other side of the debate" amounts to chanting "trans-women are not women", there's nothing to consider.
    Here's me trying to be all fair and measured, and there's you, only seeing what you want to see.

    If you don't realise what you just said was rubbish, me attempting to convince you of it, would be a waste of key strokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    When the "other side of the debate" amounts to chanting "trans-women are not women", there's nothing to consider.
    the other side of the debate is much more nuanced - radio 4 talked to both sides in a long piece recently

    example of the two POVs:

    1. a mother who supported all the medical and physical intervention to help her child achieve the gender that they wanted (i know the vocab is probably wrong, please look past that)
    2. a father who questioned whether a child should be making these decisions and having them facilitated at an early age without (as he saw it) the same level of psychological help as he saw being put into the medical and physical efforts. (teenage years being traumatic at the best of times, he feared that the person he thought of as his daughter was being allowed to do permanent things to their body that might one day be regretted)

    Both parents loved their child and neither party was chanting or reducing the debate to stupid slogans. He was no neanderthal thug with no feelings. He was reasoned and considered. He was trying to work out what was best for his child and questioned whether we have got the balance right.

    I have no skin in this game and no real knowledge. I know nobody trans (to my knowledge) but i too have misgivings similar to the father above. That is where my worries sit yet i have much bigger worries than that so frankly, a post like this with some musings is as far as i will go...

    I don't think i will treat anybody differently. I pray that i won't have to deal with it in my family because what i do know is that it is clearly a horrible experience for the person involved and those around them. I hope we have a better understanding of it soon, that it stops leading to suicide and depression, that society invests in something that seems to be important.

    I think the guides are dealing with it correctly. I think we should make young people feel loved and supported. I can do that much... What i think about medical procedures, binding of chests etc doesn't matter and i don't know enough to have a real opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    However, trans-leaders is another question entirely. I say that after having come across several trans-people who seemed to have quite militant views - they were exactly the type of people who would test GG membership but be entirely unsuitable for the role - not because of their trans-status, but because regardless of their gender identity - they are idiots.
    If the fact they are unsuitable for the role has nothing to do with them being transgender, then what will stopping transgender people becoming leaders achieve? Idiots come in all shapes and sizes, and is hopefully something that will be picked up via GG's normal appointment process.

    More generally, and this is directed at no-one in particular, it seems like a lot of these arguments were exactly the same as those used when the BSA began to allow gay YP and adults. TSA and GG has rightly allowed individuals to be members regardless of their sexual orientation for a while, and I hope and think that in time, transgender members will be no more controversial than non-heterosexual members.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    Surely their problem arises from the fact that they are a single sex organisation that prohibits male leaders. When Scouting was all boys back in the day, we had lots of female leaders, so when we opened up to girls joining it was a largely friction less transition. The Guides have backed themselves into a corner with ideology that all men are predators. If they had a mixed leader group this would never have been an issue. Inclusive and Diversity are not easy bedfellows when you are a single sex organisation. The issue with self identification of gender is that it is open ended, how many genders are there, there are around 21 at the moment, although no one can agree on a definite number, if they accept self identifying trans gender, do they accept people of both genders, or no gender, or anyone of the multiple flavours that are out there. Once you open the lid of being inclusive, in an exclusive environment you realise you can't pick and choose any more.
    Not so - I've been a Unit Helper with a Guide Company for 29 years. fulfilling many roles. I'm also there most weeks clearing up after the meeting. There is definitely a place in GirlGuiding for male volunteers, just not at the immediate front line. Also, most Guiders I've met over those 29 years are not rabid anti-male feminists, many arel married with husbands and sons.

    This debate is not so much over GirlGuiding's policy but over the way the individuals expressed themselves, in much the same way as the Darth Vader case was. In both organisations you can hold contrary views as long as you don't express them in an offensive way. Interesting that most of the young posters here have no issue with the concept of trans gender - a real case for actually listening to the YP perhaps.

    TBH I can't see many children of Brownie/Guide age having taken the decisions required to become fully trans - its something that teenagers largely struggle (often very painfully) with. I think Girl Guiding are handling a very difficult subject sensitively.
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    the other side of the debate is much more nuanced - radio 4 talked to both sides in a long piece recently

    example of the two POVs:

    1. a mother who supported all the medical and physical intervention to help her child achieve the gender that they wanted (i know the vocab is probably wrong, please look past that)
    2. a father who questioned whether a child should be making these decisions and having them facilitated at an early age without (as he saw it) the same level of psychological help as he saw being put into the medical and physical efforts. (teenage years being traumatic at the best of times, he feared that the person he thought of as his daughter was being allowed to do permanent things to their body that might one day be regretted)

    Both parents loved their child and neither party was chanting or reducing the debate to stupid slogans. He was no neanderthal thug with no feelings. He was reasoned and considered. He was trying to work out what was best for his child and questioned whether we have got the balance right.

    I have no skin in this game and no real knowledge. I know nobody trans (to my knowledge) but i too have misgivings similar to the father above. That is where my worries sit yet i have much bigger worries than that so frankly, a post like this with some musings is as far as i will go...

    I don't think i will treat anybody differently. I pray that i won't have to deal with it in my family because what i do know is that it is clearly a horrible experience for the person involved and those around them. I hope we have a better understanding of it soon, that it stops leading to suicide and depression, that society invests in something that seems to be important.

    I think the guides are dealing with it correctly. I think we should make young people feel loved and supported. I can do that much... What i think about medical procedures, binding of chests etc doesn't matter and i don't know enough to have a real opinion.
    That's an *entirely* different situation. The discussion here isn't about whether a child should be trans and/or have any physical intervention at Scout/Guide age (which TBH I'm not sure they should other than puberty-suppressants), but whether that trans child should be permitted to join an organisation consistent with their gender identity.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hisdark View Post
    If the fact they are unsuitable for the role has nothing to do with them being transgender, then what will stopping transgender people becoming leaders achieve? Idiots come in all shapes and sizes, and is hopefully something that will be picked up via GG's normal appointment process.
    That's not really what I meant. The notion they might be an idiot which is not directly linked to their gender identity - might lead them to do silly things in the name of their gender identity.

    It's not normal to suggest lesbians who don't wish to sleep with a person who has a penis, should be labelled a bigot and/or killed. Or that feminists are terfs who should be physically attacked. Those are position held by hard line transgender activists - not because they are transgender, but because they're idiots.

    It's as if the entire range of people and opinion on this is tarred with the opinions of the arseholes who book-end the debate. In reality, you have parents and women, and transgender people - all in the middle with real concerns, who're all agreed, that ignoring one side or the other in favour of reactionary, knee jerk actions only harms their interests.

    Is what I think.

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    This is a no doubt biased website, but it does cover all the issues in great detail.

    https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-l...call-for-halt/

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  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    This is a no doubt biased website, but it does cover all the issues in great detail.

    https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-l...call-for-halt/
    Basically an #AllLivesMatter response...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Basically an #AllLivesMatter response...
    Not sure what that means. (I assume you think it's bad).

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Not sure what that means. (I assume you think it's bad).
    Basically, it's emphasising "all" in order to exclude the minority they dislike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Not sure what that means. (I assume you think it's bad).
    All Lives Matter is a response to the Black Lives Matter movement in America. On the whole the supporters of Black Lives Matter think that the use of All Lives Matter instead whitewashes (deliberate choice of word) the issue of systematic racism against Afro-Americans.

    I think Chris is trying to say that the cis-gendered (ie, people who identify with the gender they were born with) are putting their problems above the very problems that trans people suffer with. But I may be wrong.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    Basically, it's emphasising "all" in order to exclude the minority they dislike.
    OK, I don't think you win over the majority by trivialising their concerns or calling them names (although I am starting to think that we live in an age when that does work).

    I did say that the website might be biased, but I thought it enumerates the issues that need to be answered in a clear and detailed presentation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    OK, I don't think you win over the majority by trivialising their concerns or calling them names (although I am starting to think that we live in an age when that does work).

    I did say that the website might be biased, but I thought it enumerates the issues that need to be answered in a clear and detailed presentation.
    Yup.

    I thought it was interesting as well. Digressing for one or two sentences only, it always surprises how exercised people get about what they regard as biased sources of news/info, and that because it might be partisan they/it should be silenced. If you know it's output tends to fall down in favour of one or other side of an argument, surely (and don't call me Shirley) you can then factor that in to how you interact or rate with that news source?

    I mean, we're all adults aren't we? Do we really need protected from things we might not agree with? Are we so incapable of critical reasoning?

    There is a corollary between Black Lives Matter and Gay pride. People moan about Gay Pride marches, they say, why isn't there a similar institution for straight folk. The argument for Gay Pride is, that it's getting gay folk to where straight folk already are. Meanwhile, you have a number of straight folk (book-ends really), who believe that because Gay Pride exists, it's some how an attack on the heterosexual hegemony, (oooh, get me and my big words... )

    So it's a bit like saying instead; All Sexual Preferences Matter. Of course they do, but when as recently as thirty years ago you could go to jail for having a little bit of consensual jiggery pokery with another fella/lass - that's not been true of heterosexuality.

    I really don't see why it always needs to be a competition between causes, it's not like there are too few ways of getting these issues out into the open these days.

    Back on topic. GG's and trans-membership - still don't have an opinion.

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  18. #44
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    Crikey, mumsnet feminism chat is a bit of an eye opener! Anyway, for info, the equivalent TSA policies apparently are thought of as quite good, from my reading of the posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    They are children. They are not of an age to be deliberate sexual predators.
    You might think that... but...

    It isn't really the point though, is it. Any kid has the potential to get embroiled in this moral morass.

    I can recall things that we "all" did when we were younger. It often worked both ways. I'm not going to go into the details but I am sure that many teenagers over the years have gone through the stage of "exploration". I'm not sure that it makes them sexual predators, just curious about their feelings and their bodies.

    Any old way, BP, as always, had the answer. A cold shower. Do guides do cold showers? Or do they still follow the thinking that girls don't have sexual thoughts?
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