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Thread: Girlguiding "membership withdrawals"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Here's me trying to be all fair and measured, and there's you, only seeing what you want to see.

    If you don't realise what you just said was rubbish, me attempting to convince you of it, would be a waste of key strokes.

    Giving equal say to every point of view is not "balance" (regardless of the BBC's ridiculous record on the subject). Some points of view have long been demonstrated to be worthless, and should be discarded immediately. Garbage like "trans women are not women" belongs on the same rubbish tip of history as "black people are inherently inferior".
    Last edited by bluesam3; 26-09-2018 at 10:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Any old way, BP, as always, had the answer. A cold shower.
    And sleep on your side. Oh no, that was specific boys advice. In that entertaining "special" campfire yarn that got dropped from Scouting for Boys (but is in the much more recent reprint)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Giving equal say to every point of view is not "balance" (regardless of the BBC's ridiculous record on the subject). Some points of view have long been demonstrated to be worthless, and should be discarded immediately. Garbage like "trans women are not women" belongs on the same rubbish tip of history as "black people are inherently inferior".
    You are right, giving equal say to "trans women are not women" and "black people are inherently inferior" is not balance (well it might be, depending on your argument and evidence).

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    Many years ago, a wise lady told me, "The only difference between boys in girls is that boys have plumbing on the outside, girls have it on the inside. What goes on in their heads is very much the same."

    Having observed for the past 40 years, and having kept my eyes and ears open, she was pretty close to the truth, just that the express themselves in different ways. So, that being the case, the transgender youth may or may not pose a challenge. The transgender adult, shouldnormally not pose a problem.

    Girlguiding has been very brave to come into the open with this. I guess that they were forced into it by developing scenarios. Scouts, I think, always had homosexuals in adult positions, which is about as comparable as we can get, and for the most part Scouting turned a blind eye until it was legitimised. Guiders, apperently never showed any lesbian tendencies and therefore could never be considered a threat to the girls. So, Scouting never really faced the same criticism and scrutiny - and of course, social media was not available to rally troops on either side. If anything was ever said, it was a local issue.

    All a bit of a storm in a B-Cup...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Giving equal say to every point of view is not "balance" (regardless of the BBC's ridiculous record on the subject). Some points of view have long been demonstrated to be worthless, and should be discarded immediately. Garbage like "trans women are not women" belongs on the same rubbish tip of history as "black people are inherently inferior".
    I don't think that's a fair comparison, and in the context of this, saying all opponents to this are chanting 'trans women are not women' is stupid - because that isn't what's happening. There are trans-woman calling for the murder of lesbians, assaulting what they call 'TERFS' in the street and committing sexual crimes against other women in women's prisons - do we say all trans-woman just chant (and do) that stuff?

    The rest is your opinion, which is no more or less valid than anyone elses.

    I've always believed our culture and society informs our ethics, and since our culture and society is for ever evolving and changing - sometimes for the worst, sometimes for the better - the 'facts' in this are going to be quixotic.

    Which is why there is no right answer to this - for now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Many years ago, a wise lady told me, "The only difference between boys in girls is that boys have plumbing on the outside, girls have it on the inside. What goes on in their heads is very much the same."

    Having observed for the past 40 years, and having kept my eyes and ears open, she was pretty close to the truth, just that the express themselves in different ways. So, that being the case, the transgender youth may or may not pose a challenge. The transgender adult, shouldnormally not pose a problem.

    Girlguiding has been very brave to come into the open with this. I guess that they were forced into it by developing scenarios. Scouts, I think, always had homosexuals in adult positions, which is about as comparable as we can get, and for the most part Scouting turned a blind eye until it was legitimised. Guiders, apperently never showed any lesbian tendencies and therefore could never be considered a threat to the girls. So, Scouting never really faced the same criticism and scrutiny - and of course, social media was not available to rally troops on either side. If anything was ever said, it was a local issue.

    All a bit of a storm in a B-Cup...
    Oh yes, some Guiders did show tendencies. There have always been lesbian Guiders, as there naturally still are. They did not have the same problems as did homosexual leaders in Scouting due to the differences in the law, nevertheless similar blind eyes were turned in Guiding as were in Scouting.

    Regarding the current topic, it has been made clear that until the appeal period has expired and there is confirmation over whether an appeal will or will not be made, care has to be taken by Guiding members over what they say regarding the Leaders who have been expelled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I don't think that's a fair comparison, and in the context of this, saying all opponents to this are chanting 'trans women are not women' is stupid - because that isn't what's happening. There are trans-woman calling for the murder of lesbians, assaulting what they call 'TERFS' in the street and committing sexual crimes against other women in women's prisons - do we say all trans-woman just chant (and do) that stuff?

    The rest is your opinion, which is no more or less valid than anyone elses.

    I've always believed our culture and society informs our ethics, and since our culture and society is for ever evolving and changing - sometimes for the worst, sometimes for the better - the 'facts' in this are going to be quixotic.

    Which is why there is no right answer to this - for now...
    I'm sorry, but what exactly have you been reading? Every single fact available in this story is because those guiders were saying - though maybe in not so many words - that trans women aren't women. I have seen plenty of stories of trans people being attacked by others; I have never heard of a trans person calling for the murder of lesbians or physically assaulting Terfs (though obviously when your very identity is attacked, some trans people may respond in kind to the provocation).
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I don't think that's a fair comparison, and in the context of this, saying all opponents to this are chanting 'trans women are not women' is stupid - because that isn't what's happening.
    That was a literal quote from someone actually involved in this discussion.

    There are trans-woman calling for the murder of lesbians, assaulting what they call 'TERFS' in the street and committing sexual crimes against other women in women's prisons - do we say all trans-woman just chant (and do) that stuff?
    All are wildly outnumbered by the number of so-called feminists who do exactly those things towards transwomen.

    The rest is your opinion, which is no more or less valid than anyone elses.
    Yeah, that's just not true. Some opinions are more valid than others. Opinions of the form "we should discriminate against group X" are pretty much always in the latter category.

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    I am no expert, but I believe that the legal basis upon which GG is allowed to discriminate it's membership is as a single sex organisation (not single gender organisation), yet apparently in recent times the organisation has started to interchange the terms indiscriminately. Given that many believe GG should not be allowed to exist at all, despite it being one of the largest voluntary organisations in the country, some questions must surely be allowed to be discussed?

    Related or not, I wonder upon what basis women's (or men's) sports are allowed to exist? There are almost no (elite) sports in which men and women (however they may be defined) compete on equal terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    I am no expert, but I believe that the legal basis upon which GG is allowed to discriminate it's membership is as a single sex organisation (not single gender organisation), yet apparently in recent times the organisation has started to interchange the terms indiscriminately. Given that many believe GG should not be allowed to exist at all, despite it being one of the largest voluntary organisations in the country, some questions must surely be allowed to be discussed?
    This is probably the crux of the problem, people confusing, and probably twisting to suit they own views, sex and gender.

    If GG are a single sex organisation they should only be admitting people who are physically female and not those who are physically male but who identify as female. Identifying would appear to be outside the definitions of the Equality Act 2010 so allowing a male in who identifies as female discriminates against a male who identifies as male so could potentially be illegal.

    Reading a bit more about this GG seem to want to exclude females who identify as males. Again this is going to put them in a very difficult position with relation to the Equality Act. I await the first court case to hit the press.

    The simplest solution would be for GG to admit all sexes and all genders (like Scouts) but I guess that will be way too big a step.
    Last edited by Kastor; 28-09-2018 at 12:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    The simplest solution would be for GG to admit all sexes and all genders (like Scouts) but I guess that will be way too big a step.
    There are seemingly a lot of women who think (rightly or wrongly, I'm proffering no opinion on this), that girls need a space where they can be themselves away from people with penises. There's a scale of opinions, as far as I can see, that range from "it's nice for them" to "all men are rapists". So I would agree with you, just admitting boys into guides would be a step too far. Mind you, there's probably a percentage of men that think boys are so wet these days they might as well join guides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    I am no expert, but I believe that the legal basis upon which GG is allowed to discriminate it's membership is as a single sex organisation (not single gender organisation), yet apparently in recent times the organisation has started to interchange the terms indiscriminately. Given that many believe GG should not be allowed to exist at all, despite it being one of the largest voluntary organisations in the country, some questions must surely be allowed to be discussed?

    Related or not, I wonder upon what basis women's (or men's) sports are allowed to exist? There are almost no (elite) sports in which men and women (however they may be defined) compete on equal terms.
    The legal basis is that they are a private club, and are perfectly entitled to discriminate in terms of their membership however they damned well please.


    (Incidentally, there are a handful of such elite sports put there: non-Olympic sailing being probably the most obvious example).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    All are wildly outnumbered by the number of so-called feminists who do exactly those things towards transwomen.
    Really, got anything to back that up? Even if that were the case, does that make it alright?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Yeah, that's just not true. Some opinions are more valid than others. Opinions of the form "we should discriminate against group X" are pretty much always in the latter category.
    Still just your opinion, which is no more or less valid than any one else's.

    Unless of course, you're labouring under the misapprehension that you're the final arbiter of said validity. If you are, there's a word for that...


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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Really, got anything to back that up?
    Yes. Neto, Achiles. "Sexual diversity and education: Unveiling violence against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transvestites, transexuals and transgenders." CULTURE HEALTH & SEXUALITY. Vol. 15., and Rajan, V. (2011). Women Suicide Bombers. London: Routledge. are a good place to start.

    Even if that were the case, does that make it alright?
    No, it makes your argument intellectually dishonest.


    Still just your opinion, which is no more or less valid than any one else's.
    Again: not all opinions are equal. Some are discriminatory garbage that can go die in a fire.

    Unless of course, you're labouring under the misapprehension that you're the final arbiter of said validity. If you are, there's a word for that...

    Yes. It's called "actually knowing what you're talking about". Those with expertise in the area essentially unanimously agree with me. The opinions of morons are not as valid as the opinions of experts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Yes. Neto, Achiles. "Sexual diversity and education: Unveiling violence against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transvestites, transexuals and transgenders." CULTURE HEALTH & SEXUALITY. Vol. 15., and Rajan, V. (2011). Women Suicide Bombers. London: Routledge. are a good place to start.
    I thought we were talking about crime perpetrated between trans-people and ultra-feminists driven by the debate we're discussing here, not homophobia against LGBTQ people more generally - Unless you can provide a source for those statistics? (I don't believe the stats are collected in a way that might allow us to draw useful conclusions...)

    (Also, since there are a heck of a lot more women/lesbians than there are trans-people. It stands to reason there will be more people at the radical feminist end of the debate. One might be forgiven for wondering what the percentages are in the context of the groups the claim to represent.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    No, it makes your argument intellectually dishonest.
    You said: All are wildly outnumbered by the number of so-called feminists who do exactly those things towards transwomen. when I suggested there were trans-activists calling for the murder of lesbians and feminist. If you need it explained why that in no way excuses extremism at the other end of this particular spectrum...

    I suspect it is not my argument which is intellectually dishonest.




    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Again: not all opinions are equal. Some are discriminatory garbage that can go die in a fire.
    The word I was thinking about was bigot. (noun: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Yes. It's called "actually knowing what you're talking about". Those with expertise in the area essentially unanimously agree with me. The opinions of morons are not as valid as the opinions of experts.
    As I said, I have no opinion on this except to say, there seem to be valid concerns coming from both sides. Personally, I don't assume it's my place to decide who is or is not a moron (at least no outwardly) - unless it's really obvious... Even then, I often hesitate...

    As a gay chap, with gay and trans-gendered friends, who dips into and out of the LBGT/* world - and who grew up with the kind of casual homophobia unique to the 1980's...

    I'll take your opinions with a pinch of salt.


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