Girlguiding "membership withdrawals"

[dragonhhjh]

GG seem to be in a bit of turmoil over what I think is the issue of trans members which has lead them to "withdraw membership" of 2 members which is causing a bit of a storm on social media.

https://twitter.com/Girlguiding/stat...50491306352640

Is anyone aware of the background which lead to this? From reading the replies it appears that there may be questions raised about the legitimacy of their "advisers" which is causing the most discussion.

[ASLChris]

Google is your friend here

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-expelled.html

[Andrew Rush]

See also https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/makin...trans-members/

[pa_broon74]

This is indicative of a wider issue around trans-identity.

I don't have an opinion* because, frankly, there seems to be no middle ground with this.


* I do, but I'm keeping it to myself.

[CambridgeSkip]

Google is your friend here

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-expelled.html

Oh Good Lord! The Mail!

Do I dare read “below the line” on this one?

[dragonhhjh]

Thanks Andy and Chris, I had found those pages but was still a little confused as a lot of the comments on the Twitter feed I saw (and linked to above) were talking about predatory behaviour, Savile and safeguarding.

[SteveF]

Thanks Andy and Chris, I had found those pages but was still a little confused as a lot of the comments on the Twitter feed I saw (and linked to above) were talking about predatory behaviour, Savile and safeguarding.

I used to be a Venture Scout Leader with a joint venture/ranger unit. Although I got on well with many Guide colleagues I found that there was a section of the Guide movement that regarded all males as potential predators.

Looking at some of the stuff on Twitter reminded me of this.

[Keith]

In Scouting we've had issues with some Leaders not wanting to let Girls join the movement, and there are similarities to the issue here.

Anyone can join Girl Guiding as long as they identify themselves as being female, so that means pre or post op female transexuals are welcome to join.

They may feel that they can justify themselves by saying it contradicts inclusion policies and ignores basic safeguarding issues.

These leaders want to exclude girls or those that identify themselves as female due to them being born with male genitalia.

To be signing open letters and posting on social media about their disagreement with their national associations policies wasn't a good move on their part.

Just like in Scouting, if we refused to accept girls into our group, we quite rightly wouldn't be members of the movement for long.

[BenOfThe12th]

In Scouting we've had issues with some Leaders not wanting to let Girls join the movement, and there are similarities to the issue here.

Anyone can join Girl Guiding as long as they identify themselves as being female, so that means pre or post op female transexuals are welcome to join.

They may feel that they can justify themselves by saying it contradicts inclusion policies and ignores basic safeguarding issues.

These leaders want to exclude girls or those that identify themselves as female due to them being born with male genitalia.

To be signing open letters and posting on social media about their disagreement with their national associations policies wasn't a good move on their part.

Just like in Scouting, if we refused to accept girls into our group, we quite rightly wouldn't be members of the movement for long.

BIG difference here Keith, after all the girls aren't pretending to be boys to gain entrance.

The crux of this matter is the "self identified" part, that's whats really causing all the issues.

[khoomei]

For better or worse, GG sell themselves as a girl only space and whatever the perceived benefits of that are. Many of it's members, leaders and parents have joined on that basis. I guess they feel let down by the hierarchy that policies have shifted without proper consultation with them, whilst outside political pressure groups have been consulted and apparently influenced policy. In general, GG has a good record of consulting it's membership on policy and other issues (a much better record than TSA).

Even with a comprehensive consultation (which hasn't happened, I guess because of the inevitable bad publicity), there was very likely to be hierarchical pressure on the solution, and an inevitable fall out.

I guess many sports have similar problems with testosterone fuelled 'girls' taking part in girl only events.

[pa_broon74]

It's just such a gnarly topic this.

GG's won't have a choice in this when the law changes, it'll be illegal to deny membership on grounds of gender.

The problem with it is, there's no compromise position with it. In other areas, young lesbians are now being taught that they should consider self-identifying as male, and that it should be considered socially unacceptable (trans-activists claim its bigoted) to rule out partnerships with men who identify as females.

What I find perplexing is the right-on 'woke' attitude some people have about this - to be painfully up to speed with all the current trends. Often, the people who are being painfully right on, are doing it by proxy, it's pure virtue signalling. - they've never even met a trans-person.

It's all a bit outre these days.

[Andrew Rush]

For information - Email from Girlguiding:

A message to all our members, parents and carers

Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy

In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.

Amanda Medler
Chief Guide

Ruth Marvel
Acting Chief Executive

- - - Updated - - -

As a Scout leader, the bit that I find interesting is "the individuals in question have a right to appeal."

[ASLChris]

BIG difference here Keith, after all the girls aren't pretending to be boys to gain entrance.

The crux of this matter is the "self identified" part, that's whats really causing all the issues.

They are children. They are not of an age to be deliberate sexual predators.

[ASLChris]

It's on the BBC now: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45642054

[ianw]

Well I surveyed 100% of those who have been involved in girl guiding in my house, and that teenage girl said "but they're girls". Not sure you have to try and be "woke" and virtue signalling with a parent, except if you seek to annoy, but I'm pretty sure that was just her honest opinion.

I guess it's one of those where your finishing point, of female trans kids and adults being accepted into guides, depends on your start point of whether trans is a thing, whether it's just an mental problem, whether it's just an excuse to get near girls, whether all men are rapists, or whether you just accept female trans as female. The end result of what's the right thing to do vis-a-vis girlguiding flows from that.

I did find some "quality" comment on mumsnet. Some unhappy bunnies on there.