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Thread: NAN Form updated

  1. #91
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    The issue is that TSA's policy, and the law, struggle to align.

    Being independant of TSA, one only has to follow the law. Any sensible organisation will align their policies on DBS checks with the law. Besides, far too much faith is placed in the DBS check.

    The problems around DBS, the constant increase in micromanagement such as the new NAN form, the increasingly heavy top-down structure... all reasons i'm glad not to be involved directly in TSA any more.
    Actually, the TSA policy and the Law do align, the problem is that TSA has created a section of adults who may be on site with young people, who need not be DBS checked by law - but who, in reality, could well be in contact with minors. Having said that, the TSA operates, or has sites operated, where there is public access - I often camped at sites where groups outside the jurisdiction of TSA also used the site, and sometimes those people were not DBS checked.

    Being independent of TSA one only has to follow the law... Well, actually, you have to do more than just follow the law, you have to be ever vigilant, you have to be selective, you have to make judgement calls that in TSa, are made on your behalf by the Safegaurding team and records kept at Gillwell, by the DC, by the Appointments Sub Committee. As an independent, I and my team have to do more than we did as TSA Leaders.

    I have often said that I am glad that I am not part of TSA any more, but the absolute reality is that it would be more correct to say that I am glad to be out of the micromanaging self agrandoising political morass that was my district ( perhaps county). I often think of the efforts we have gone to to make things work over the past four years and consider that that time and effort could have made a huge difference in Scouts if it were not hampered by petty politics and pointless micromanagement.

    Yes, it is great to have the freedom from niggling intervention and pointless management structures, but ...

    If you don't mind me asking, when you say you are independent of TSA, are you part of another organisation or group? Ah, I think the penny has dropped.
    Last edited by Bushfella; 08-10-2018 at 07:54 AM.
    Ewan Scott

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  2. #92
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    Ah...

    Remember the days, when you'd just organise your camp, chuck everything (including the kids) into the back of a panel van and off you'd go?

    You sometimes wonder, what adult would ever join Scouts these days? The entire organisation is slowly disappearing up it's own increasingly paranoid and bureaucratic fundament.

    Saying that, Network (for example) isn't the hotbed of paedophilia it might be, because no such thing exists near to us. It was so ill-conceived, it basically ended any involvement for over 18's unless they wanted to be a leader - and if you want to be a leader... Well, see above.

  3. #93
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    You sometimes wonder, what adult would ever join Scouts these days? The entire organisation is slowly disappearing up it's own increasingly paranoid and bureaucratic fundament.
    Well our Group and Unit has far more Leaders under 30 than we have over 30's and that now includes 2 out of the 4 Section Leaders. Most of them had been youth members in Scouting so to answer you question, adults who grew up in Scouting seem to that to still want to join Scouting as Leaders.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Well our Group and Unit has far more Leaders under 30 than we have over 30's and that now includes 2 out of the 4 Section Leaders. Most of them had been youth members in Scouting so to answer you question, adults who grew up in Scouting seem to that to still want to join Scouting as Leaders.
    That's adults who grew up in Scouting - so they're already acclimatised to the regime.

    We (as in our group, and I'm sure we're not alone) can't rely on people who grew up in scouting - they all leave the area and seldom return. If they do, they're so busy paying their mortgages, they don't have time for Scouts.

    We had a cohort of Explorers all aged 16/17/18 who helped at Scouts and Cubs - they're all left for University. So it's not like they have a terrible time of it and can't wait to leave - they stay until they absolutely have to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Actually, the TSA policy and the Law do align, the problem is that TSA has created a section of adults who may be on site with young people, who need not be DBS checked by law - but who, in reality, could well be in contact with minors. Having said that, the TSA operates, or has sites operated, where there is public access - I often camped at sites where groups outside the jurisdiction of TSA also used the site, and sometimes those people were not DBS checked.

    Being independent of TSA one only has to follow the law... Well, actually, you have to do more than just follow the law, you have to be ever vigilant, you have to be selective, you have to make judgement calls that in TSa, are made on your behalf by the Safegaurding team and records kept at Gillwell, by the DC, by the Appointments Sub Committee. As an independent, I and my team have to do more than we did as TSA Leaders.

    I have often said that I am glad that I am not part of TSA any more, but the absolute reality is that it would be more correct to say that I am glad to be out of the micromanaging self agrandoising political morass that was my district ( perhaps county). I often think of the efforts we have gone to to make things work over the past four years and consider that that time and effort could have made a huge difference in Scouts if it were not hampered by petty politics and pointless micromanagement.

    Yes, it is great to have the freedom from niggling intervention and pointless management structures, but ...

    If you don't mind me asking, when you say you are independent of TSA, are you part of another organisation or group? Ah, I think the penny has dropped.
    I suspect that we are not too different. I was a leader within TSA. I am not any more. I'd rather not name the organisation that i'm involved with in a public forum if thats ok?

  7. #96
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    That's adults who grew up in Scouting - so they're already acclimatised to the regime.

    We (as in our group, and I'm sure we're not alone) can't rely on people who grew up in scouting - they all leave the area and seldom return. If they do, they're so busy paying their mortgages, they don't have time for Scouts.

    We had a cohort of Explorers all aged 16/17/18 who helped at Scouts and Cubs - they're all left for University. So it's not like they have a terrible time of it and can't wait to leave - they stay until they absolutely have to leave.

    Our Group was financially sound and I always put the members first. So, when Explorers left to go to University, we would ensure that they all knew that they could come back any time they were available. Some used to drop in during their holidays, and later returned as Leaders, others went off to University or work and found other interests, which is absolutely natural.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Our Group was financially sound and I always put the members first. So, when Explorers left to go to University, we would ensure that they all knew that they could come back any time they were available. Some used to drop in during their holidays, and later returned as Leaders, others went off to University or work and found other interests, which is absolutely natural.
    Yup.

    Our final Explorer trip consisted of current and ex-members going back 15 years or more.

    The thing is, if you are to play it by the book, you can't really do that. We had three under 18's along, the rest (ten or so) were all 18 and up.

    (It was a wee bit strange seeing a bunch of not-kids-any-more take themselves off to the pub of an evening - but the World turns...)

    No one was Network, and technically, most of the over-18 Explorers were closer to their 19th birthday.

    As a rough measure. I'm 44, and only now am I seeing people my age return to live in the village, many with kids in tow. (The only reason I wangled it, was inside knowledge about cheap estate housing... I assume my erstwhile peers, won the lottery or something...)

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    We have a large number of leaders and I don't always know in advance if they can attend. Sometimes one of our regulars pulls out at the last minute or one of our leaders from another section finds he can pop in for a day after all. I'd still expect them to be a leader like the rest of us but I can't predict that on the form...

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  11. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Yup.

    Our final Explorer trip consisted of current and ex-members going back 15 years or more.

    The thing is, if you are to play it by the book, you can't really do that. We had three under 18's along, the rest (ten or so) were all 18 and up.

    (It was a wee bit strange seeing a bunch of not-kids-any-more take themselves off to the pub of an evening - but the World turns...)

    No one was Network, and technically, most of the over-18 Explorers were closer to their 19th birthday.

    As a rough measure. I'm 44, and only now am I seeing people my age return to live in the village, many with kids in tow. (The only reason I wangled it, was inside knowledge about cheap estate housing... I assume my erstwhile peers, won the lottery or something...)

    I'm now seeing contemporaries of my own children bringing kids to Navigators. It is a rather binding situation because it reminds you of how much you have invested in the local community (regardless of thanks) and it creates ties that bind. For me, creating a double barrier to moving "home".
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  12. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pepper View Post
    We have a large number of leaders and I don't always know in advance if they can attend. Sometimes one of our regulars pulls out at the last minute or one of our leaders from another section finds he can pop in for a day after all. I'd still expect them to be a leader like the rest of us but I can't predict that on the form...
    Export the list of all adults in your group from Compass along with their DBS expiry dates. Attach that to the NAN form and state that you will notify the DC if any of the adults that you take are not in that list.

    That is my plan. That list has 278 people on it presently for my group

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  14. #101
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    I'm not sure I see what the problem is with the new form. It only requires you to know which adults may be attending a week before the event. We generally don't have many spare adults at our camps, so need to know for definite who's coming to make sure we comfortably cover the ratio. We welcome leaders from other sections, but we'd want to have an idea of who might be coming so we can plan food. It's not too much effort to ping out an email a couple of weeks before camp saying, let us know if you might be coming.

    The only thing that's a bit unclear to me is whether it refers to the minimum people who will definitely be there, or the maximum people who may at some point attend. I'm guessing the latter.

    Is it necessary? I'm not sure, but I can see why a DC might want a record of adults attending the camp so they could check DBSs are up to date if they were unsure.

    The only difference it'll make for me is asking a couple of people for their membership numbers. Can't say I'm that bothered by it.

  15. #102
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Tea cup and storm comes to mind.

    I cannot recall a single camp where we, didn't know exactly who was coming a month before the camp.

    The only time we had issues with unannounced attendees was when we ran a District Camp and there were folks who couldn't fill out a form to save themselves - the result was (not from me) an explosion and the development of a no-go zone around SWMBO. It was a matter of principle. They were asked to inform us if they were coming, they didn't. It impacted upon the plans we had spent days putting together. I think what lit the fuse was when they said "What's the problem?"

    Anyway, there is an anser to all this paperwork being generated
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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  16. #103
    Senior Member BalooNav's Avatar
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    There is certainly an issue as I find things vague and unclear. But that could just be me!

    The Event Info section asks for approximate numbers of YP and adults attending, so far so good and as before.

    It’s the Event Leadership section that provides uncertainty for me. The first 8 boxes all okay, then the infamous “Names of adults attending (with membership no.)”. Does this mean we need to provide info on every adult attending – and is that overnighting and day visitors. Is it all leaders in attendance? So Uniformed roles I guess? Or just those involved in organising the camp? I could see no explanation as to what they meant to be included here as Event Leadership is not defined nor its relation to adults attending.

    I’ll be filling one of these out shortly, so I’ll ping the info centre a line – though at present my district does this online and the online form has yet to be updated… so I may be spared this dilemma if I get mine in quickly before the website is updated

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    I would take it to mean Adults who will be staying overnight.
    If you did an activity day at a campsite, say arriving at 9am - taking part in on site activities, lunch, afternoon activities, evening meal cooked on a fire, widegame/campfire then home at 9:30pm you wouldnt need a NAN or even a NAP

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    Having looked up POR 9.57 m it states "The relevant home Commissioner (or their nominee) must be notified before any nights away
    event takes place". There is no reference to approval. Scouts.org.uk, and the new NAN form says a NAN provides "the information a Commissioner requires to approve an event to take place". Which is correct?

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