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Thread: NAN Form updated

  1. #106
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    POR 9.1.B https://scouts.org.uk/media/980503/Chapter-9.pdf
    Rule 9.1 Activity Rules

    Application
    a.
    These Rules apply to all activities carried out anywhere in the world.
    b.
    The District Commissioner is responsible for approving all activities for Beaver Scouts, Cub
    Scouts, Scouts and Explorer
    Scouts. This will usually be by means of an informal system agreed
    between the District Commissioner and each Group Scout Leader or District Explorer Scout
    Commissioner.
    Fill in your NAN with all adults staying overnight ( that you are aware of)

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    Not hugely clarifying but this is the response received:


    It would depend on the situation but I would expect that usually event leadership relates to the main section or camp leaders. It might also include all those staying overnight but this would depend on what was agreed with the DC.


    Of course the usual DC can decide what they want caveat.



    Quote Originally Posted by BalooNav View Post
    There is certainly an issue as I find things vague and unclear. But that could just be me!

    The Event Info section asks for approximate numbers of YP and adults attending, so far so good and as before.

    Its the Event Leadership section that provides uncertainty for me. The first 8 boxes all okay, then the infamous Names of adults attending (with membership no.). Does this mean we need to provide info on every adult attending and is that overnighting and day visitors. Is it all leaders in attendance? So Uniformed roles I guess? Or just those involved in organising the camp? I could see no explanation as to what they meant to be included here as Event Leadership is not defined nor its relation to adults attending.

    Ill be filling one of these out shortly, so Ill ping the info centre a line though at present my district does this online and the online form has yet to be updated so I may be spared this dilemma if I get mine in quickly before the website is updated

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    The DC can spend all the time in the world checking whether the leaders and adults all have DBSs. It should be a pointless exercise because the camp leader should already have done this (if they dont have access then just asking the individual to log in to compass and send a screen shot showing their DBS expiry should work) if working with leaders that arent a regular part of the group surely? And if the leaders are part of the group then the GSL would presumably be on top of DBSs, as they are ccd into the emails warning about suspension I think?

    Its adding an extra check level... but one that most DCs are unlikely to bother actually checking - especially when there is no requirement in POR for them to do so.

    Equally, its all well and good ensuring that the adults there through Scouting are DBS checked... but what about everyone else on site. There is no requirement in POR for Scout Campsites only to accept recognised youth groups or to check that those groups have valid DBS checks for their adults. There is no requirement to only camp at scout campsites - and nothing stopping a group using a public campsite.

  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    POR 9.1.B https://scouts.org.uk/media/980503/Chapter-9.pdf


    Fill in your NAN with all adults staying overnight ( that you are aware of)
    Why do I get so annoyed by this? I don't know, may I should just ignore it - but sometimes the lack of clarity really niggles.

    Rule 9.1 covers all "activities", a term that is not well defined - but from the context of the rest of Section 9 it might reasonably be taken to mean any activity covered by a permit scheme or laid on by an external provider or out of the ordinary. I have heard people say that it covers everything, but I doubt the intention was that it covered everything that we ever do - but may be it does - I guess the DC can withdraw their approval for me to teach my Cubs knots if they choose.

    Rule 9.1 says "This will usually be by means of an informal system agreed between the District Commissioner and each Group Scout Leader or District Explorer Scout Commissioner." This suggests that the method of "approval" of activities is something that is up to the local area to work out. However, the Night Away Notification form is about Notification - not "approval" (at least it was), and it is quite clearly "formal" not "informal".

    So which is it? Is "approval" for activities to be done via an "informal" system or is it via a "formal" system. And if it is a "formal" system, why signal out the Nights Away Activity for "formal approval" but leave all of the others as "informal".

    I think it bothers me because I like to know that I am doing the right thing. If the NAN form is now the "formal" mechanism by which I get "approval" from the DC to run a camp I will feel the need to receive and document that "approval" from my DC - after all, why should the DC have a paper trail that leads back to me but I don't get one that leads back to him? Is that really what they mean? I doubt it, because I can't see the DC's wanting to be placed in a position where they have to respond to every single NAN form and individually "approve" every camp - the poor buggers have enough to do already!

    So, yes we all require "approval" to run "activities" from the DC. But, no, this does not need to be done by a "formal" mechanism. The NAN form is a "formal" mechanism and should be kept for what it is a "notification" not a request for "approval" - having received the "notification" the DC can choose to withdraw their "approval" if they choose - but the presumption of "approval" to run Night's Away Activities is provided by the Permit.

    The clarity of this process really matters because every leader up and down the country that runs a camp has to get their head around this. So every hour that is wasted navigating the current ill conceived approach is an hour of volunteer time that could have been spent organising a better programme. There are lots of leaders and lots of camp - so that is lots of hours wasted.

    All it takes is a bit more clarity of thought, and simple, clear, advice. An hour spent at HQ getting these things right saves hundreds of hours of volunteer time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    The DC can spend all the time in the world checking whether the leaders and adults all have DBSs. It should be a pointless exercise because the camp leader should already have done this (if they dont have access then just asking the individual to log in to compass and send a screen shot showing their DBS expiry should work) if working with leaders that arent a regular part of the group surely? And if the leaders are part of the group then the GSL would presumably be on top of DBSs, as they are ccd into the emails warning about suspension I think?

    Its adding an extra check level... but one that most DCs are unlikely to bother actually checking - especially when there is no requirement in POR for them to do so.

    Equally, its all well and good ensuring that the adults there through Scouting are DBS checked... but what about everyone else on site. There is no requirement in POR for Scout Campsites only to accept recognised youth groups or to check that those groups have valid DBS checks for their adults. There is no requirement to only camp at scout campsites - and nothing stopping a group using a public campsite.
    I agree with your view on the DC wasting their time redoing checks that the permit holder should already have done.

    But, the other adults on the campsite do not need to have a DBS check because they are not supervising our kids (they may be supervising other kids but that is not our problem). The DBS checks are not about protection against random strangers that happen to be near by. They are about checking that the adults we put in positions of control over our young people have not already been caught for abusing others. It is worth remembering that the whole system was bought in to prevent the occurrence of a situation like the school caretaker - Ian Huntley who was allowed to continue working in a school despite previous convictions.

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    The bit of POR 9.1 often forgotten is:

    POR 9.1b
    The District Commissioner is responsible for approving all activities for Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts, Scouts and Explorer Scouts. This will usually be by means of an informal system agreed between the District Commissioner and each Group Scout Leader or District Explorer Scout Commissioner.


    This does not mean the DC issuing a dictat about the process for the approval of activities in the District. This does not mean the District GSLs Meeting agreeing a process for the approval of activities in the District. This is about a discussion between DC and each GSL (and DESC) agreeing a process for the approval of activities.

    How many GSLs and DESCs have actually had that discussion?



    Paul
    Last edited by PaulArthurs; 12-10-2018 at 09:12 AM.

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  11. #112
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    I haven't, though my DC doesn't ask me for specific approval for anything other than NA so I don't mind his system

    I do believe some other less experienced Leaders/GSLs in the District are asked for more information, so I think he is complying to that by varying it as necessary.

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    It occurs to me that this new section, apart from all of the other problems, is entirely bleeding useless: I don't remember the last time I ran a camp that didn't have some adults without DBS checks helping on it (just not staying overnight). As written, they all need to go on the form, so the DC will get a massive list of adults without DBS checks for every camp I ever run, and this isn't in any way an indication of there being a problem. I guess it's intended that you just put the adults that stay overnight, but that isn't what it says.

    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    Yes, but what if there is not a NAP going with the contingent from the group? District events have often been used to provide an overnight experience for groups which have no NAP.

    Every group needs a NAP/NAN. There's no limit on how many groups one person with an NAP can run camps for at the same time, providing they're able to adequately supervise all of them. (my standing record is three, personally: a Cub camp, with an Explorer hike passing through and staying a night there, and a Scout night hike finishing there in the early hours of the morning then collapsing into tents until about noon).

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    If you're in any other youth organisation it's the same unless you are breaking the law; the issue is a legal one, not one of TSA policy.

    Unless their organisation doesn't have a "Network" equivalent, in which case there simply are no adults attending such events who aren't in DBS-able roles.
    QUOTE=shiftypete;459901]Well our Group and Unit has far more Leaders under 30 than we have over 30's and that now includes 2 out of the 4 Section Leaders. Most of them had been youth members in Scouting so to answer you question, adults who grew up in Scouting seem to that to still want to join Scouting as Leaders.[/QUOTE]

    For an even more extreme example: at 25, I'm our third oldest leader.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    The bit of POR 9.1 often forgotten is:

    POR 9.1b
    The District Commissioner is responsible for approving all activities for Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts, Scouts and Explorer Scouts. This will usually be by means of an informal system agreed between the District Commissioner and each Group Scout Leader or District Explorer Scout Commissioner.


    This does not mean the DC issuing a dictat about the process for the approval of activities in the District. This does not mean the District GSLs Meeting agreeing a process for the approval of activities in the District. This is about a discussion between DC and each GSL (and DESC) agreeing a process for the approval of activities.

    How many GSLs and DESCs have actually had that discussion?



    Paul
    Apart from NAN forms, the only such that my DC has ever asked for was "if you take them sailing and you've got a spare space, let me know: I'd love to have a go at that".

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  14. #114
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    I have been a Leader for over 15 years and have had 4 DCs in that time, none of them have ever asked for details of our Programme or for us to ask permission to do anything (apart from NA events). As an AESL we do let our DESC see our programme but that only gives them an outline idea of what we are doing at best also we went about 5 years without a DESC at one point and we just carried on running what we liked without informing anyone nevermind asking.

    In those 15+ years I have had incidents requiring accident report froms on only 5 occasions to the best of my recollection, 2 involved ice skating, 1 an undiagnosed prexisitng heart condition (by far the scariest but nothing I could have done to prevent it) and 1 a burn on a gas lamp. 1 involved a cut whilst whittling where the Scout involved failed to follow the most important instruction, "keep the hand holding the item being whittled behind the knife at all times" and sliced into the edge of their own thumb.

    I just do not see what practical benefit rule 9.1 brings, unless the DC going to review my risk assessments for all activities of have the GSL/DESC do so before approving them (which would be hard given I rarely write them down) which is about the only way they are going know if what I am planning to do is safe enough or not then it is a pointless rule which gives DC a responibilility which they have no need for and no way of executing properly. I have said this many times on here and elsewhere that this rule needs removing and replacing with something which makes clear the DC had the right to cancel any and all activities on safety grounds and that GSLs/DESCs should be kept informed about all section activities.

    TSA seem determined to make the DC role unmanageable and have responsibiliities which are impossible to actually carry out properly, no wonder they are struggling to recruit DCs and are having to resort to things like Team DC.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I have been a Leader for over 15 years and have had 4 DCs in that time, none of them have ever asked for details of our Programme or for us to ask permission to do anything (apart from NA events). As an AESL we do let our DESC see our programme but that only gives them an outline idea of what we are doing at best also we went about 5 years without a DESC at one point and we just carried on running what we liked without informing anyone nevermind asking.

    In those 15+ years I have had incidents requiring accident report froms on only 5 occasions to the best of my recollection, 2 involved ice skating, 1 an undiagnosed prexisitng heart condition (by far the scariest but nothing I could have done to prevent it) and 1 a burn on a gas lamp. 1 involved a cut whilst whittling where the Scout involved failed to follow the most important instruction, "keep the hand holding the item being whittled behind the knife at all times" and sliced into the edge of their own thumb.

    I just do not see what practical benefit rule 9.1 brings, unless the DC going to review my risk assessments for all activities of have the GSL/DESC do so before approving them (which would be hard given I rarely write them down) which is about the only way they are going know if what I am planning to do is safe enough or not then it is a pointless rule which gives DC a responibilility which they have no need for and no way of executing properly. I have said this many times on here and elsewhere that this rule needs removing and replacing with something which makes clear the DC had the right to cancel any and all activities on safety grounds and that GSLs/DESCs should be kept informed about all section activities.

    TSA seem determined to make the DC role unmanageable and have responsibiliities which are impossible to actually carry out properly, no wonder they are struggling to recruit DCs and are having to resort to things like Team DC.
    Agree with all of this.

    We've either not had DC in place, or if they were, they either didn't know to ask, didn't expect to be told, or weren't interested in being told. DESC's we've had more of, but again, they were there if we needed support, but didn't involve themselves otherwise.

    Incidents? Mmm... We've had cuts and bumps, but we never reported them up - we communicate openly with parents who (seem anyway) to trust us to do the right thing by their kids.

    I also don't see the point of the rule except perhaps as a somewhat pointless exercise in having an audit trail - but why that needs track up through people parents, kids and often leaders have never met let alone know exist - is a bit of a mystery.

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    Anyone know how to get hold of a version of this form that works with open office, and is not in read only format??? this is what I end up with - might just send that to the DC

                      
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    Last edited by Richard T; 14-10-2018 at 11:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    Anyone know how to get hold of a version of this form that works with open office, and is not in read only format??? this is what I end up with - might just send that to the DC


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    LibreOffice can convert it cleanly. ALternatively, let me know if you want my converted one emailing over.

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    Make sure you have nunito sans font installed https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Nunito+Sans

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Just re worked it from scratch, hopefully nothing missing.

    A few irritations with the new form ( apart form whats already been discussed)
    Event leader, if not permit holder, and Permit holders name, this needs to be the other way round, so the permit holders name is at the top, then event leader ( if not permit holder) after it
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Richard T; 14-10-2018 at 07:34 PM.

  22. #120
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    Hopefuly this one will work
    form nan re worked ver3.doc

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