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Thread: Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Surely the supervision arrangements are..."none" right? Either it's an event passport, and they're on their own, or it's a supervised camp, no passport. If I'm available on the end of a phone, I'm not supervising, I might be responsible, but I'm not supervising.
    I guess it comes down to word definitions, but I think the meaning is clear. There's presumably a whole range of levels of supervision you could have between a fully supervised camp and leaving them completely on their own. There's nothing to say you can't have different levels of supervision on a passport event, so it looks like the aim is just to communicate the level of supervision provided clearly to the parents.

    And the way it's worded makes it sound like if they're not satisfied with the arrangements we need to change them, rather than not sending their child if they aren't happy with it? Or is it the usual wacky world of ambiguous POR rules?
    I really don't think it does. To me, the statement clearly says they should only consent if satisfied with the arrangements. I don't think there's any implication that arrangements should be changed if they're not satisfied.

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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Another member of this forum has suggested to me as a solution that method of permission is, dropping your child off is how permission is granted. Parent will be informed of adults present at that point. (I assume the reaction to parent not liking the line up is bog off home but they weren’t that explicit) Personally I like the idea and will run with that!

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  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    Another member of this forum has suggested to me as a solution that method of permission is, dropping your child off is how permission is granted.
    What if they're dropped off by another parent? What if they make their own way there (especially for older sections)? I'm not sure I'd rely on the physical presence of the child being proof of parental consent. Plus I really don't see the problem with using a consent form for parents. It takes me about 2 minutes to setup on Google forms or to email out a PDF.

    However, I can see that having to list adults present could be a pain, particularly for larger camps.

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    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CambridgeSkip View Post
    Another member of this forum has suggested to me as a solution that method of permission is, dropping your child off is how permission is granted. Parent will be informed of adults present at that point. (I assume the reaction to parent not liking the line up is bog off home but they weren’t that explicit) Personally I like the idea and will run with that!
    But who's responsibility is it that the Parent is informed about the Leaders?

    If the Parent drops and runs is that deemed acceptance that the Parent is happy with the Leaders even if they don't know who they are?
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    But who's responsibility is it that the Parent is informed about the Leaders?

    If the Parent drops and runs is that deemed acceptance that the Parent is happy with the Leaders even if they don't know who they are?
    True there are details to iron out and pass on how to do so at the moment. However to quote one of my personal heros, Malcolm Tucker, HQ have just laid a big fat egg of solid *expletive deleted*. And the ****** minded side of me is seeing this as nothing more than a problem to be worked around and nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rach View Post
    i would love to know what problem they are trying to solve with this - is it to reassure parents that there will be sufficient competent leaders on site? To allow cubs to avoid camps with the shouty Scout leader?

    If it has to be included then it certainly needs rewording to define (1) scope of the list (ie who at a district camp/jamboree should it apply to? - is it only those leaders who will be camping as part of the relevent Group/Contingent/Unit, plus details of the Leader/organisation in Charge of the event?) and (2) to recognise the need for flexibility - the leader who has to drop out at the last minute due to illness / family / work, and the helpful Scout leader friend from another section/group/district who gets a phonecall on Thursday night and steps into the breech and helps out.
    Our last cub camp, we had up to 4 parents lined up to come with us, all of whom pulled out for a variety of reasons. On the Thursday evening, we ended up calling the dad of a a cub who went up to scouts a few months ago, who had come on a previous camp so we knew he had a DBS etc. Even we didn't know he would be there until after the last meeting before the camp, on the Wednesday.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrad View Post
    Our last cub camp, we had up to 4 parents lined up to come with us, all of whom pulled out for a variety of reasons. On the Thursday evening, we ended up calling the dad of a a cub who went up to scouts a few months ago, who had come on a previous camp so we knew he had a DBS etc. Even we didn't know he would be there until after the last meeting before the camp, on the Wednesday.
    as its stands, you would need to inform all parents of that change - which is ******* nuts

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    as its stands, you would need to inform all parents of that change - which is ******* nuts
    Surely it's going to make those jittery parents, you know the ones, even more jittery and questioning.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Not entirely sure what would happen if you just didn't bother telling parents what leaders would be at camp.

    I mean, why is it a thing and what can they do about it exactly if you didn't do it - or - did it, but had leaders pull out at the last minute, or leave half way through the camp?

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    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Not entirely sure what would happen if you just didn't bother telling parents what leaders would be at camp.

    I mean, why is it a thing and what can they do about it exactly if you didn't do it - or - did it, but had leaders pull out at the last minute, or leave half way through the camp?
    Good point. This years scout camp had up to 14 Leaders, some of who came, some of whom left and some of whom were there the whole time. 1 left and returned. Do I need to publish a schedule?

  16. #26
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    Good point. This years scout camp had up to 14 Leaders, some of who came, some of whom left and some of whom were there the whole time. 1 left and returned. Do I need to publish a schedule?
    Yes, and allow parents to remove their kids while their favourite leader isn't there. And get a refund for that time.
    Ian Wilkins
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  17. #27
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    POR 3.7a (existing):
    The operation of the Colony must be overseen by a Leader.

    POR 3.7a (proposed):
    The operation of the Colony must be overseen by a Leader or team of Leaders. A Section Leader team comprises all Section Leaders, Assistant Section Leaders, Section Assistants, and Explorer Scout Young Leaders working with the Colony. Working with this wider Section Leader team, the Section Leader(s) have responsibility for the planning of the programme and the management of the Colony.


    This proposed change brings into POR that a section can be led by Section Leaders rather than a Section Leader. So, this clarifies that job-share of the Section Leader role is now permitted. (In effect, this was already happening in many places, but now provides clarity.)

    The change also seems to give the OK for the Colony to be led by a team of (Assistant) Leaders rather than Section Leader(s).

    The change also now makes clear that all the adults (except OH) and YLs in the section have responsibility "for the planning of the programme and the management of the Colony." This again help to show that it should be a team effort.


    Are there to be similar changes for the Pack and Troop? If so, it will be interesting to see how the Troop Forum is brought in to the responsibility of programme planning etc.


    POR 3.7d (existing):
    The leader in charge must plan to ensure that at least two adults (aged 18 or over) are present at regular indoor Colony meetings, at least one of whom should hold a Leader, Manager or Supporter Appointment.


    POR 3.7e (current):
    In the event of a Leader, Manager or Supporter not being able to attend the Colony meeting, it is possible on occasions for another adult, with youth leadership experience[/B][/B], to take their place at the meeting or similar event, as long as the Group Scout Leader is consulted and supports the arrangement. Such adults must have satisfactorily completed the Personal Enquiry process and would normally have completed Getting Started or the equivalent.

    POR 3.7e (proposed):
    The Section Leader(s) have an accountability to ensure that at least two adults (aged 18 or over) are present at each Colony meeting, at least one of whom holds a FULL appointment with the Section (a Section or Assistant Section Leader or a Section Assistant).


    POR 3.7f (proposed):
    In the event of no Leader, Assistant Leader or Section Assistant with a FULL appointment from the Colony Section Leader Team being able to attend a Colony meeting, it is possible for another adult member, with appropriate youth leadership experience (not necessarily in the same section), to take their place at the meeting or similar event, as long as the Group Scout Leader is consulted as soon as practicable in advance and supports the arrangement. Such adults must have satisfactorily completed the Personal Enquiry process and have a FULL appointment. It is expected that this situation will only occur infrequently if that is not the case the Group Scout Leader must take appropriate action to strengthen the Section Leadership team of the Colony.


    So, this means that BSL can no longer ask the CSL or ADC(BS) to run Beavers without the permission of the GSL. It even means the Tuesday BSL can't run the Monday Colony for a one-off (without consulting with the GSL) as the BSLs would be members of different Colony Section Leader Teams.

    Not sure what issue this change is trying to solve.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    Good point. This years scout camp had up to 14 Leaders, some of who came, some of whom left and some of whom were there the whole time. 1 left and returned. Do I need to publish a schedule?
    We can go even sillier: what about evasion-style events? I was on one a couple of weeks ago where the Explorers were being checked up on for intervals of 5-10 minutes at a time, spread out through 24 hours (almost entirely at random in terms of frequency, timing, and which adults were involved), whenever they happened to bump into us), by any 2-5 of about 40 adults (unless they happened to drop out, in which case they were supervised by an entirely different group of adults), exactly zero of whom were the people actually taking overall responsibility for their children (they were in a building somewhere nearby, keeping track of where all of the groups were, collating reports from the adults, and coordinating everything). What the hell do you put on that sheet?

  19. #29
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    e. The Section Leader(s) have an accountability to ensure that at least two adults (aged 18 or over) are present at each Colony meeting, at least one of whom holds a FULL appointment with the Section (a Section or Assistant Section Leader or a Section Assistant).
    Is that actually supposed to be English?

    I think they meant to write something like
    e. The Section Leader(s) are responsible for ensuring that at least two adults (aged 18 or over) are present at each Colony meeting, at least one of whom must hold a FULL appointment for that Section (a Section Leader, Assistant Section Leader or a Section Assistant).
    Last edited by shiftypete; 07-11-2018 at 09:03 PM.

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  21. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Is that actually supposed to be English?

    I think they meant to write something like
    e. The Section Leader(s) are responsible for ensuring that at least two adults (aged 18 or over) are present at each Colony meeting, at least one of whom must hold a FULL appointment for that Section (a Section Leader, Assistant Section Leader or a Section Assistant).

    I think you are right. I am not sure that I can "have an accountability". I can have a responsibility and I can be held accountable.

    If this is going to be in POR then it should be in English.

    Also, I am a bit unsure as to why the whole thing is happening It says "Following lengthy reviews and consultations with the Movement, the Operations Committee has agreed updates to a number of rules designed to remove unnecessary barriers....."

    They want to know our views by the end of November and intend to start the new rules in January. It sounds like it's already been decided.

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