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Thread: Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

  1. #31
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    Before I retired senior management had introduced the teams had accountability when it all went pear shaped. Just a new witchhunt for someone to blame. This smacks of HR types getting involved.

  2. #32
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    I just sumbitted my feedback and I think I suggested about 5 proposed rules that needed rewording to correct the English or provide more clarity. That is in addtion to my objections to some of the suggested changes in the first place.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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  3. #33
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    I see they have also "clarified" that network and explorers cannot operate under an event passport. It's either separate expeditions or at least two network one of which has a NAP and a leadership role. It's not clear yet if the other network scout need to be checked as well.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    I see they have also "clarified" that network and explorers cannot operate under an event passport. It's either separate expeditions or at least two network one of which has a NAP and a leadership role. It's not clear yet if the other network scout need to be checked as well.
    That isn't new, it is to stop people using awkward readings of POR to work around it.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    I see they have also "clarified" that network and explorers cannot operate under an event passport. It's either separate expeditions or at least two network one of which has a NAP and a leadership role. It's not clear yet if the other network scout need to be checked as well.
    The trouble is that the way they have clarified it now makes it read as though its not allowed to use NA passports for Explorers for large joint Explorer & Network camps such as Theme Park Camp and Apex Challenge

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  6. #36
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    The trouble is that the way they have clarified it now makes it read as though its not allowed to use NA passports for Explorers for large joint Explorer & Network camps such as Theme Park Camp and Apex Challenge
    Ooof! I guess you could read it like that. Though being logical, it's always been okay under the rules (unless we've all been doing it wrong for years) for a group on an event passport to come to a large camp where there are adults running the activity side of things, but not specifically looking after a particular group/unit. Oh, but yes, I'm looking at POR now, and there's nothing to help clarify there, how about the Nights Away FAQ...

    https://members.scouts.org.uk/suppor...75&moduleID=10

    There's a big chuck relating to expeditions...

    How do I run a joint Explorer Scout and Scout Network expedition within the rules of the Nights Away Permit Scheme?

    You should be aware of the following information:

    A Nights Away Permit holder has responsibility for any night’s away activities where under 18s are present (POR 9.56a).
    Where adults are present at the event the permit holder must be onsite. Therefore meaning, in a joint Explorer Scout and Scout Network event a night’s away permit holder must be onsite and you cannot operate under Event Passports.


    Can an event passport be used for a joint Explorer Scout and Scout Network nights away activity.

    No. Event passports can only be used where an adult is not present overnight, Scout Network members are adults and therefore a Nights Away Permit holder is required to be present during the overnight element of the event.


    I guess the crux of it is that if each group at the big event is responsible for their own Nights Away arrangements at the large event, they are responsible for feeding, transport, tentage etc, and the big event is not responsible for those things, so there's a NAP holder for each group, that's either coming along or issuing a passport.

    Or put it another way, Gilwell24 is has plenty of adults at it, including Network, yet I can send my Explorer on an event passport. If they do it like that, then it must be ok. What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

    It's also clear to me I think, and I think we've always run Theme Park Camp like this, is that the groups coming are either:
    - Explorers with leaders on a NAP
    - Explorers with no leaders/18+ on a passport
    - Network on their own
    - Explorers & Network & leaders on a NAP
    Last edited by ianw; 08-11-2018 at 09:09 AM.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo62 View Post
    POR 3.7e (proposed):
    The Section Leader(s) have an accountability to ensure that at least two adults (aged 18 or over) are present at each Colony meeting, at least one of whom holds a FULL appointment with the Section (a Section or Assistant Section Leader or a Section Assistant).
    Isn't that a promotion for section assistant? What I mean is there would no longer be a need to sign up as a leader to be able to run a meeting without the GSLs permission, you can just become SA.

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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Isn't that a promotion for section assistant? What I mean is there would no longer be a need to sign up as a leader to be able to run a meeting without the GSLs permission, you can just become SA.
    No such requirement existed before: just that somebody with a Leader, Manager, or Supporter role turned up, which already included SAs.

  10. #39
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    This all represents a very good example of when rules go wrong. They're so poorly constructed, that they're going to be ignored. All of that coupled with the notion that Scouts is supposed to be a voluntary endeavour...

    Imagine having this conversation with prospective new leaders...

    The absolute state of it all...

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    The trouble is that the way they have clarified it now makes it read as though its not allowed to use NA passports for Explorers for large joint Explorer & Network camps such as Theme Park Camp and Apex Challenge
    Rule 9.56 c. mentions the concept of a residential group, so Rule 9.61 c. should say .... 'and cannot be used for a joint Explorer Scout / Scout Network residential group.'

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    No such requirement existed before: just that somebody with a Leader, Manager, or Supporter role turned up, which already included SAs.
    But SAs are not a leader, manager or supporter. Are they?

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  14. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    No such requirement existed before: just that somebody with a Leader, Manager, or Supporter role turned up, which already included SAs.
    But, a Section Assistant is neither a Leader, Manager nor Supporter according to POR. And so the proposed rule change will allow a Section Assistant to run an evening (without the specific consent of the GSL), but that an experienced District Beaver Scout Leader or ADC(BS) will need the consent of the GSL.


    Paul
    Last edited by PaulArthurs; 08-11-2018 at 11:14 AM.

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  16. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Isn't that a promotion for section assistant? What I mean is there would no longer be a need to sign up as a leader to be able to run a meeting without the GSLs permission, you can just become SA.
    Yes, the proposed change will allow a Beaver meeting with 40 Beavers to be run by a Section Assistant (with a 'full' role) assisted by a (non OH) parent.

    I doubt that was the intention of the rule change!


    Paul

  17. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Yes, the proposed change will allow a Beaver meeting with 40 Beavers to be run by a Section Assistant (with a 'full' role) assisted by a (non OH) parent.

    I doubt that was the intention of the rule change!


    Paul
    Being slightly picky the maximum size for a Beaver colony is 24 - but even then its probably not what they intend....

    But playing devils advocate, the training required for a SA and the training required for a full section leader are identical for the first 3 years - i.e. a SL can run a section meeting only having done "Getting Started" to get their role upgraded from provisional to full, which is the same amount of actual training (Mods 1 and 3) as a Section Assistant gets in completing the training. So if its a problem having a SA run a session, surely its also a problem having a new SL run it?

    Such is the perverse nature of the training and appointments system. For once this change removes that strange distinction.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

  18. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    Being slightly picky the maximum size for a Beaver colony is 24 - but even then its probably not what they intend....
    Could be 40 ...
    POR 3.7a: The recommended maximum size for a Colony is 24 Beaver Scouts.
    but
    POR 3.7b: This number may be exceeded with the agreement of the Group Scout Leader.

    In the knowledge that the Colony has a BSL, 3 x ABSLs and 3 x BSSAs then the GSL may have extended the Colony limit to 40.


    Another difference between an Assistant Section Leader and a Section Assistant is that the Section Assistant may not be a Member of the movement.


    Paul

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