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Thread: Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

  1. #61
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    I am confused how can the reason for a rule be confidential safeguarding issues?

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
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    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  3. #62
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    One of the problems with this is that that is sometimes confidential i.e. Safeguarding issues.
    The trigger for considering the rule may have been an incident but it must be possible to generalise the issue to explain the rule. In fact if the rule is to protect against a very narrow, singular event then I don't think it is a very good rule. Bolting stable door after horse has bolted springs to mind.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    The trigger for considering the rule may have been an incident but it must be possible to generalise the issue to explain the rule. In fact if the rule is to protect against a very narrow, singular event then I don't think it is a very good rule. Bolting stable door after horse has bolted springs to mind.
    Last night I explained to a group of Leaders that my understanding is that the alcohol policy came about due to safeguarding incidents that involved Leaders drinking. I didn't need to give them details of any of the specific incidents. I can't imagine a time when that would be necessary.

    I think in my time in Scouting I have seen a change. At one time we had an explanation of reasons for a change. In my early days of taking Scouts fell walking for example there were a number of deaths in a school trip to the Cairngorms. It "started the ball rolling" with more rules etc.

    In more recent years we just get told there is going to be change in something.

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    Come to think of it, we do take part in a number of County and District events. Some of those allow Patrols to camp without Troop leaders and, in at least one, Troop leaders are not allowed to attend, even to help pitch or strike (we are allowed to the closing ceremony and to the Saturday evening camp fire!)

    Custom and practice says that I submit a NAN - after all, our DC should know we're sending a Patrol. And I'll know the leader(s) in charge personally, because they (and I) have been around the County for a while. But I've no idea who else is on the team, let alone which of those unknown leader(s) might be assigned to keep an eye on our Patrol.

    Obviously I've always made it clear to parents on what basis the camp was organised.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Last night I explained to a group of Leaders that my understanding is that the alcohol policy came about due to safeguarding incidents that involved Leaders drinking. I didn't need to give them details of any of the specific incidents. I can't imagine a time when that would be necessary.
    That's a good point. I do know of some details of one of the specific incidents involved in that one, but I agree it wouldn't be necessary to know it to work out what sort of things may have been an issue.

  8. #66
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    " Leaders, Managers and Supporters must hold an up
    to date first aid certificate (a minimum of First
    Response) at the point the review is undertaken. All
    adults (as listed above) are required to maintain a first
    aid certificate at all times from the completion of first
    aid as part of their Wood Badge training."

    So, in our District there are about 12 groups each of which must have about 10 leaders needing First Response. That means, for the District, we need a course of 12-15 every term (or thereabouts). Today the certificate lasts 3 years and you have until your next review to renew it, in the future you will have to renew it BEFORE it expires.
    Let us say the District regularly runs a First Response on the Saturday of Remembrance weekend (a date when few are off camping or doing activities), this year 10th, next year 9th, then 7th, 6th, and then (probably) 12th. Someone doing it next year, it will expire a few days before the next course.
    I think there needs to be a bit of leniency otherwise it will catch loads of people out because, around our way, there are currently insufficient First Response courses.
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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  10. #67
    Senior Member johnmcmahon's Avatar
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    As a Section we maintain our FA cover. This is becoming more difficult.

    There are no first responses in our District for the next 12 months (or the previous one as far as I am aware).

    We were fortunate to be able to get on to a course in a neighbouring District. This was run on 3 consecutive Wednesday evenings, which in our book is better than giving up yet another family weekend (worked for us, anyway).

    Training teams need to actually speak to members about their availability. Something that doesn't happen round these parts.

  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    " Leaders, Managers and Supporters must hold an up
    to date first aid certificate (a minimum of First
    Response) at the point the review is undertaken. All
    adults (as listed above) are required to maintain a first
    aid certificate at all times from the completion of first
    aid as part of their Wood Badge training."

    So, in our District there are about 12 groups each of which must have about 10 leaders needing First Response. That means, for the District, we need a course of 12-15 every term (or thereabouts). Today the certificate lasts 3 years and you have until your next review to renew it, in the future you will have to renew it BEFORE it expires.
    Let us say the District regularly runs a First Response on the Saturday of Remembrance weekend (a date when few are off camping or doing activities), this year 10th, next year 9th, then 7th, 6th, and then (probably) 12th. Someone doing it next year, it will expire a few days before the next course.
    I think there needs to be a bit of leniency otherwise it will catch loads of people out because, around our way, there are currently insufficient First Response courses.
    That isn't universally the case. Bucks runs about one a month, bouncing around a few different locations. Same with Safeguarding.

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    We book at County level, so can go anywhere in County. Last time round, I had a very pleasant bike ride over to Berkhamsted and back (from North Herts). Given our location, I could probably try for Bedfordshire (one mile up the road) or Cambridgeshire (easy train ride) courses as well. However, finding dates is hard - many of my evenings are full, let alone family weekends.

    Something to watch out for is probably people renewing early, while they have the chance, thus creating additional demand.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

  13. #70
    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    I can conceive of a scenario where a mischievous ne'er do well decides to run a camp with another adult, non scouter, who might be similarly mischievously inclined. Having to declare who the leaders are might just prompt an inquisitive parent to query the legitimacy of the arrangements. In a similar manner, displaying the yellow card prominently in your HQ enables parents to question leaders and hold them to account. Most of these rule changes appear to me to be attempts to close opportunities for those inclined to mischief or those who can't be bothered to run activities "properly".
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wealdbrook View Post
    " Leaders, Managers and Supporters must hold an up
    to date first aid certificate (a minimum of First
    Response) at the point the review is undertaken. All
    adults (as listed above) are required to maintain a first
    aid certificate at all times from the completion of first
    aid as part of their Wood Badge training."

    So, in our District there are about 12 groups each of which must have about 10 leaders needing First Response. That means, for the District, we need a course of 12-15 every term (or thereabouts). Today the certificate lasts 3 years and you have until your next review to renew it, in the future you will have to renew it BEFORE it expires.
    Let us say the District regularly runs a First Response on the Saturday of Remembrance weekend (a date when few are off camping or doing activities), this year 10th, next year 9th, then 7th, 6th, and then (probably) 12th. Someone doing it next year, it will expire a few days before the next course.
    I think there needs to be a bit of leniency otherwise it will catch loads of people out because, around our way, there are currently insufficient First Response courses.


    I suggested in my feedback that they should leave things as they are with having a First Response all the time being seen as best practice.

    Changing the rule is going to lead to a need for far more courses and I am not convinced that we have the people to run them. Some people running First Response may not have the right qualifications and I suggested to Gillwell that a rule change could make things worse.

    What are we going to do if a Leader lets his First Response lapse, perhaps because he suddenly is unable to attend a requalification course?

    One problem that I have is people booking a place on a course, not turning up and then wanting to book another place on another course. I advertised a course this year saying people who had failed to turn up (with no explanation) in 2018 would not be accepted. It would be harder to do this if they had to have a First Response.
    Last edited by SteveF; 10-11-2018 at 07:02 PM.

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  16. #72
    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W View Post
    I can conceive of a scenario where a mischievous ne'er do well decides to run a camp with another adult, non scouter, who might be similarly mischievously inclined. Having to declare who the leaders are might just prompt an inquisitive parent to query the legitimacy of the arrangements. .
    Really? Surely they would just ignore the rule? After all, few parents know POR exists, let alone read it.

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  18. #73
    ASL and YLUL wealdbrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    After all, few parents know POR exists, let alone read it.
    You might say the same for a lot of leaders :-)

    The problem is that the ones who follow the rules (written and intent) are the ones who will be impacted most with extra red tape. The ones who currently don't follow the spirit of the rules (ignorance or just ignoring) won't take any notice. How many DCs are going to get rid of leaders whose First Response expires for a few months or who doesn't tell parents the details of the leaders on a camp?
    John Alexander,
    ASL and Assistant Webmaster
    1st Weald Brook
    http://www.1stwealdbrook.org.uk
    ESL(YL) Brentwood District

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  20. #74
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    I would say, if the rules were easier to follow, then those ne'er do wells, might feel more inclined (or more able) to follow them.

    I wonder how many DC's know all these rules off by heart? It occurs to me, that they're not any more uniquely placed to understand them than any other volunteer.

    It seems to me, it's certainly possible to run a Scout Movement without quite so much bureaucracy.

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    It took me a good few months ( at least 3) to get my First response renewed, courses were cancelled ( one which was cancelled i didnt find out it was off until the night before ) and the one that wasnt cancelled in the middle of all that, I was unable to attend ( away )

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