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Thread: Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

  1. #106
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    I assume the intention is to allow time for additional costs to be budgeted for, additional trainers to be trained, additional courses to be scheduled, and for individuals to attend the course.
    I think that falls into the same category as expecting world peace
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    I agree..... but that will only work as you say with online courses like certain modules, GDPR, Safety, Safeguarding (if done online). Don't get me wrong this would be a great start.

    It would not help with practical courses, activity/NA permits etc. It would still be down to being done by a person.

    I know why things don't happen here. It is down to trying to fill every role and a few people end up with 5 or 6 roles each so when something is passed to them to do, if it is not on their radar at the time it gets put off until it becomes an issue.

    Don't say that the DC should not allow it - the DC needs roles covering otherwise it would fall to them and they have a few roles in the County so on it goes.

    The physical team is not growing but the jobs they are trying to cover does.
    My memory of the training within TSA is that the system is pretty broken. Most of the training that is needed by a scout leader could be done online. Not everyone learns well from online training so there should also be other options, but the option to complete the training, and do an online test to validate the training, should be there.

    The training + validation system is very outdated, and i've never seen it in a staff training programme where paid staff are involved - presumably because it would be an inefficient waste of time. My previous work involved a fair amount of training, and courses were either signed off at the end of the course, or had a simple multi-choice exam following which the certificate would be issued.

    It's almost as if the current training system was written by the same people who write badge requirements, with the "meet requirement A, and 2 parts of requirement B" style of validation. Rather than being written by the people who create training programmes in the corporate world, where time=money.

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  5. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    The training + validation system is very outdated, and i've never seen it in a staff training programme where paid staff are involved - presumably because it would be an inefficient waste of time. My previous work involved a fair amount of training, and courses were either signed off at the end of the course, or had a simple multi-choice exam following which the certificate would be issued.
    NVQs, Apprenticeships?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    Ok so we actually do give out a final info sheet for our NA events which includes those going on the event inc Leaders but we usually only do this a week or so before the event and by that stage we would have expected to have recieved at least a non refundable deposit if not full fees. We would take the parents dropping off the kids as consent but they don't really have much option to withdraw their kid based on which Leaders are going without losing the fee for the event.
    Yes, I don't mind telling them (hiding things from parents is really not on, and we could always tell them what we did in retrospect if another Leader came along on the camp) but the ability to withdraw consent (and by extension get a refund) is a problem.

  7. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Yes, I don't mind telling them (hiding things from parents is really not on, and we could always tell them what we did in retrospect if another Leader came along on the camp) but the ability to withdraw consent (and by extension get a refund) is a problem.
    Where do you draw the line though with hiding things from parents?

    You might genuinely not feel the need to tell parents some details of an event, but if a parent turned round a decided they should have been told and leaders where 'hiding things', that could be hugely problematic.

    Which now makes me think, this name-every-leader-at-a-camp thing might be TSA's cack-handed way of trying to be too transparent.

  8. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Which now makes me think, this name-every-leader-at-a-camp thing might be TSA's cack-handed way of trying to be too transparent.
    I believe it might well be. Cack handed the drafting certainly is.

    Edit: the obvious error in it is that it says the leader (lower case) determines the method of obtaining permission. Who's that? A Section Assistant who's coming along for one day? That should quite clearly say "The Nights Away Permit Holder in charge of the event".
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 30-11-2018 at 01:20 PM.

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  10. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    The training + validation system is very outdated, and i've never seen it in a staff training programme where paid staff are involved - presumably because it would be an inefficient waste of time. My previous work involved a fair amount of training, and courses were either signed off at the end of the course, or had a simple multi-choice exam following which the certificate would be issued.
    As Daveb pointed out NVQs use a very similar system as does the certificate for people new to the care sector. I used to assess social work students who had to show competence in practice to qualify.

    I remember my MLC course years ago when we had to demonstrate our skills to an assessor and I don't imagine it has changed.

    I have also done swimming teaching courses where we have had swimmers "provided" so that we could demonstrate our competence.

    I think it really depends on what skills and knowledge are needed. In some cases a quick multiple choice test is OK but in others it could be "a recipe for disaster."

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  12. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mang21 View Post
    Being slightly picky the maximum size for a Beaver colony is 24 - but even then its probably not what they intend....

    But playing devils advocate, the training required for a SA and the training required for a full section leader are identical for the first 3 years - i.e. a SL can run a section meeting only having done "Getting Started" to get their role upgraded from provisional to full, which is the same amount of actual training (Mods 1 and 3) as a Section Assistant gets in completing the training. So if its a problem having a SA run a session, surely its also a problem having a new SL run it?

    Such is the perverse nature of the training and appointments system. For once this change removes that strange distinction.
    I'm happy with the change- because we have some extremely capable section assistants who've been scouting for years, but simply don't have the time to take on the training and validation within the 3 year period or want to share the workload but not take full responsibility for a section.

    As you say they have the same initial training as someone else new, and gain experience as they go along. Where possible we do train & validate them for extra modules. Most of our SA do first response courses.

    Many of our leaders are only with us for a year or two due to moving away- and I gather the national average isn't much longer. It's a good thing not to have to pressurize these folk to step up to an assistant role & do extra training just to cover the absences of the other leader(s), when they will almost certainly leave before it is completed. Some of our people do move on to other Uk groups, but not all.

  13. #114
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    On training...

    It used to be, that people coming into Scouts were either ex-scouts (so had skills) or were slightly outdoorsy (so had skills or were prepared to learn for mutually beneficial motives.)

    Now though, I don't think this is any longer the case. We have people leading with no prior experience or skills, no pre-existing interest in outdoorsy stuff and lets be honest, they're very often in because no one else would put their hand up.

    I'm not sure what kind of training you need in place for this situation. What ever it is, it needs to be very low impact in terms of time and effort but (conversely) much wider in terms of what's being taught.

    I still think, if you can't manage a whole day or even whole weekend once out of your entire life to train, then you're not going to be suitable for a leadership role. Also, I'd venture to say, you're also not keen enough anyway. I really think TSA needs to manage the expectation here better.

    I reckon you could get the basics down in a day, the rest (scouting skills) could be covered by encouraging groups to allow shadowing - new leaders can spend a few evenings with existing leaders (HQ or districts can even have specific groups who do it if they're worried about quality...) You can teach all the child safety/admin stuff in class. You can't teach the actual leading though, that has to be done on the job. Leaders in groups chosen for shadowing get an extra pair of hands for a few weeks, Scouting gets a new leader (not a helper, but an actual leader with some experience). Meanwhile district/HQ can if they want, get an opinion on how the new leader was with hands on stuff, (so to speak....)

    On Nights Away. I'd remove indoor camps from it completely. I'd insist new leaders should have at east visited a scout camp with existing leaders (vetted by district HQ). For greenfield, I'd leave that as is, requiring full validation.

    There can be modules (although I wouldn't call them that, I'd just call them Guidance or something) on the specialist stuff like running internationals etc.

    I think that's how I'd have it.

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  15. #115
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    I can see advantages in a number of the changes that are coming in and welcome them. Although a few will cause us difficulties.

    I was particularly pleased to see that junior compound bows will now be included on a recurve bow permit. The only time we use any compound bows is with our smaller Beavers and Cubs to make sure that their shots have enough strength to stay in the targets. They also have the advantage that they are easier to draw and hold - once you have got past the first little bit. This means that an adult can help with that part of the draw and let the child take over if required.

    I'm lucky that my first aid certificates have always been kept up to date by school and Scouting so it has never been an issue for me to get mine renewed. At the moment I've actually got 3 different first aid qualifications. However, I have known the qualifications of some of my assistant leaders to lapse and us to have problems finding a course so that they can renew them. It has never caused an issue as there have always been plenty of us around with current qualifications but the new rule that is coming in will cause us more difficulty in this area.

    With regards to letting parents know who is attending the camp I can see its use but it also requires parents to pay attention to that information when it has already been given. I'm part of a large group that has 3 Cub Packs. If I organise a camp or sleepover I'll generally invite all the sections along. I'm directly involved with the leadershiop of two of the Packs so well know to the parents of these sections but don't have much to do with the third. We've not always had leaders available from the both of the other sections so there have been times I've taken children away without leaders they know. We try and make this as clear as possible to the parents and I'm always careful to add my name when I'm sending out messages. However it is probably this sort of situation which has led to the changes that are being introduced. That isn't to say that parents have always properly read the messages either. We've had them suddenly realise there isn't a leader they know on a couple of occasions and change their minds about their child attending. Equally we've had parents who are happy for us to look after them instead - they normally have friends in the other sections even when they haven't know our leaders. Only once have we had a child attend with us who didn't know the leaders or other young people. That was to JOTA-JOTI at Gilwell Park (from Durham - 5hrs away!) this year. They got on fine with the others and really enjoyed the trip. His parents were fully aware of who was attending though and what our roles in the group were. (We had 4 children and 3 adults so rather good ratios too...)

    I suspect the change that is going to have the largest direct effect on some of the other sections in my group is the trampoline park one. We've only one that is registered with the international association of trampoline parks near us - and it is a lot further away than those currently used by our other sections. I've never felt that happy with taking my Cubs - I know of too many people who've been injured at the parks and don't feel it has much benefit in terms of Scouting - so it won't cause me a problem. However, I know one of our Scout groups is off to a park this coming week just to avoid the incoming rule change. I'd much rather look at areas such as horse riding or climbing personally. With the horse riding it does introduce an extra thing to check before we go to a stables but I don't think it is as likely to cause me any issues.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmbaker View Post
    I'd much rather look at areas such as horse riding or climbing personally
    I don't know of any climbing wall which is not a member of ABC (the Association of British Climbing Walls), and they generally have an excellent safety record, unlike trampoline parks. So that would be regulation for regulation's sake.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmbaker View Post
    I can see advantages in a number of the changes that are coming in and welcome them. Although a few will cause us difficulties.

    I was particularly pleased to see that junior compound bows will now be included on a recurve bow permit. The only time we use any compound bows is with our smaller Beavers and Cubs to make sure that their shots have enough strength to stay in the targets. They also have the advantage that they are easier to draw and hold - once you have got past the first little bit. This means that an adult can help with that part of the draw and let the child take over if required.
    I'm assuming (i could be wrong) that you're talking about this kind of thing rather than anything too serious when it comes to junior compounds?

    https://seriouscountrysports.com/pro...iABEgKW-fD_BwE

    If so, i'd be really interested to find out how you've got on with them

  18. #118
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmbaker View Post
    I know one of our Scout groups is off to a park this coming week just to avoid the incoming rule change. I'd much rather look at areas such as horse riding or climbing personally. With the horse riding it does introduce an extra thing to check before we go to a stables but I don't think it is as likely to cause me any issues.
    TSA already issued guidance about Trampoline Parks in April 2017 that includes ensuring that the park is a member of the international association of trampoline park and/or has a certificate of compliance to BSI PAS 5000 from an independent accredited inspector.
    https://members.scouts.org.uk/fs120425

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
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    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  19. #119
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    Congratulations to the team at Gilwell, and relevant volunteers, that have been considering the proposed changes to POR (including the complete re-write of one chapter).

    The consultation of POR changes proposed for January closed at midnight on 1st January. Already the team at Gilwell have collated all the responses they have received, produced recommendations for any changes, and passed suggestions on to the relevant volunteers. The volunteers have preseumably read a summary of the responses, considered guidance from staff, consulted where necessary and reached a decision on the changes. The decisions have then been fed back to Gilwell, the text of POR amended and proof read, final pdf files produced and all uploaded to the website.

    All within a week! Everyone involved has clearly been very busy in a very small time frame. Congratulations to you all.

    Updated POR is available at: www.scouts.org.uk/por

    Paul

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  21. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Congratulations to the team at Gilwell, and relevant volunteers, that have been considering the proposed changes to POR (including the complete re-write of one chapter).

    The consultation of POR changes proposed for January closed at midnight on 1st January. Already the team at Gilwell have collated all the responses they have received, produced recommendations for any changes, and passed suggestions on to the relevant volunteers. The volunteers have preseumably read a summary of the responses, considered guidance from staff, consulted where necessary and reached a decision on the changes. The decisions have then been fed back to Gilwell, the text of POR amended and proof read, final pdf files produced and all uploaded to the website.

    All within a week! Everyone involved has clearly been very busy in a very small time frame. Congratulations to you all.

    Updated POR is available at: www.scouts.org.uk/por

    Paul

    this made me smile...

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