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Thread: Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

  1. #121
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Congratulations to the team at Gilwell, and relevant volunteers, that have been considering the proposed changes to POR (including the complete re-write of one chapter).
    ....
    All within a week! Everyone involved has clearly been very busy in a very small time frame. Congratulations to you all.
    And they say sarcasm is difficult to put across in the written word.

    Well that was a waste of bandwidth filling that in then.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    BigBadBaloo (08-01-2019),PaulArthurs (08-01-2019)

  3. #122
    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Congratulations to the team at Gilwell, and relevant volunteers, that have been considering the proposed changes to POR (including the complete re-write of one chapter).

    The consultation of POR changes proposed for January closed at midnight on 1st January. Already the team at Gilwell have collated all the responses they have received, produced recommendations for any changes, and passed suggestions on to the relevant volunteers. The volunteers have preseumably read a summary of the responses, considered guidance from staff, consulted where necessary and reached a decision on the changes. The decisions have then been fed back to Gilwell, the text of POR amended and proof read, final pdf files produced and all uploaded to the website.

    All within a week! Everyone involved has clearly been very busy in a very small time frame. Congratulations to you all.

    Updated POR is available at: www.scouts.org.uk/por

    Paul
    You sound surprised, but you shouldn't be really!
    Peter

    Former CSL - 2nd Bracknell


    A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. Lao Tzu (600 BC - 531 BC)

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    Neil Williams (09-01-2019)

  5. #123
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    You sound surprised, but you shouldn't be really!
    I suppose it's probably actually massively egotistical to think that if I write something in a survey that they go "oooh, yeah, everyone....everyone...got Ian's survey results in...we've got some changes to make...

    Oh, and I signed off my frost camp email...

    See you there!

    Your "tea? Yes please" leaders. Ian W, Ian T, Harriet, Andy C, Andy W (and other various at various points)
    So that's me following POR right? Excellent!
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

  6. #124
    ASL Kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Edit: the obvious error in it is that it says the leader (lower case) determines the method of obtaining permission. Who's that? A Section Assistant who's coming along for one day? That should quite clearly say "The Nights Away Permit Holder in charge of the event".
    Where does it say the NAP holder has to be in charge of the event?

  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev View Post
    Where does it say the NAP holder has to be in charge of the event?
    They are by definition in overall charge of it even if they are only acting as a supervisor to the person who is running the event. Were it otherwise, they would be unable to exercise the authority required of their Permit.

    By the way, I've read through the various proposals and they don't appear to have changed them at all - and the updates, Factsheets included, are absolutely full of spelling and grammatical errors. A very poor show indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBaloo View Post
    You sound surprised, but you shouldn't be really!
    Normally they do take them into account, I find, and there tend to be minor tweaks as a result.

    This one is clearly a massive rush-job and nothing appears to have changed from the proposals.

  8. #126
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    Have we not learned by now, that in Scouts: there is a world of difference between being in charge of a thing, and being responsible for a thing?


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    I know it has been discussed before, but now it is real I am still trying to get my head around this part from the Nights Away section so i can help my team understand it:

    "have parental consent (method to be determined by the leader) in which parents are informed of key information about the event including which leaders are present;"

    Breaking this down to try and understand the real message.... "parental consent", i.e., something given from the parent to us, "in which parents are informed"....hold on, now this communication is going in the other direction! So clearly this should be two lines; have parental consent and also should have provided the parent with key information. But what is "key information"? If it is in the rules to provide it then surely it should be detailed. Is location, date and time enough?

    Will it be sufficient to say "The leader in charge is xxx and will supported by other members of the cub scout team"? As a parent I would be comfortable with that. But I could see this as requiring a full list of names also which has many issues.

  10. #128
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    Update: I just asked Gilwell. The advice I received is to name the Leaders who are planned to be present overnight (after all you would not be running a camp without knowing you have the correct ratios etc) but it is reasonable to state that this is always subject to last minute change. It is also advised (but this is common sense also) that if there is a significant change that you inform the parents but that would not require new consent. We did discuss what significant change meant but I do not want to open a new can of worms here.


    EDIT: As an after thought, I should have asked if this were a district event if I name all the Leaders!
    Last edited by GSL-Baloo; 09-01-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  11. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Have we not learned by now, that in Scouts: there is a world of difference between being in charge of a thing, and being responsible for a thing?

    All right, then, "decided by the Nights Away Permit Holder responsible for the event".

  12. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSL-Baloo View Post
    Update: I just asked Gilwell. The advice I received is to name the Leaders who are planned to be present overnight (after all you would not be running a camp without knowing you have the correct ratios etc) but it is reasonable to state that this is always subject to last minute change. It is also advised (but this is common sense also) that if there is a significant change that you inform the parents but that would not require new consent. We did discuss what significant change meant but I do not want to open a new can of worms here.


    EDIT: As an after thought, I should have asked if this were a district event if I name all the Leaders!
    This is a prime example of a rule that in reality will be fudged by camp organisers - it's just so woolly in nature. Then those that fudge it will be accused of ignoring 'the rules' and castigated for it.

  13. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I don't know of any climbing wall which is not a member of ABC (the Association of British Climbing Walls), and they generally have an excellent safety record, unlike trampoline parks. So that would be regulation for regulation's sake.
    I wasn't talking about the regulation with the comment that you replied to. I was talking about the activities that I would prefer to do with my section. I don't see much Scouting value in trampoline parks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    We've a couple of Bear Archery Scout Bows. They certainly seem to make it easier for the Beavers and the younger Cubs to fire the arrows with enough force to remain in the target whilst still being suitable for use without a release aid.
    Group: 1st Framwellgate Moor Scout Group - Durham City and District - Durham Scout County.
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    Roles: Cub Scout Leader (Wednesday); Training Advisor - formerly Assistant Scout Leader.

    IST member: 2010 World Scout Moot Kenya; 2017 World Scout Moot Iceland.

  14. #132
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    Some really good comments on here, and maybe now I am getting an old hand!! nearly 15 years I am possibly getting a grumpy old git. this is a shambles. No one really listens, they seem to knee jerk probably as others have identified to demonstrate they have done something to cover of a few minor incidents that probably generated HQ a lot of out of proportion grief. for me the notifying parents of what leaders will be be on camp is just odd. surely when in uniform we are all the same!!!! and they had chance with the kayaking and canoeing changes to do something that would really improve the situation but if anything they have made it worse. First aid I agree with, but I know plenty who cant even find a basic 4 hour course, so unless the deliver is in place they can say what they like it wont happen.
    Paul Austin
    Kent Scouts SASU Water team
    G0AXQ, intrests in Scouting, Cycling, Hiking, anything on the water. seeing the young people achive.

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