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Thread: Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

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    Jan 2019 POR pre launch checks

    They don't include the wording for other sections, but I presume they are same as for Beavers

    3.7d. The delivery of the Colony programme is the responsibility of the wider Section Leader team, led by the Section Leader. Additional adults (for example parents, subject experts from the community) may be used on a regular or occasional basis to support the programme delivery. The Personal Enquiry and criminal records disclosures checks requirements detailed in Rule 3.26(b) apply for these additional adults.

    I run a cub pack, and I expect parents to help with programme delivery on an occasional basis. The proposal seems to be that all of these would have to undergo a DBS check. Apart from being impractical, would it not also be illegal?

    https://scouts.org.uk/media/993631/P...ember-2018.pdf
    Last edited by Baloo62; 06-11-2018 at 08:14 PM. Reason: link added

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    One-off guest speakers and experts wouldn't be covered by Rule 3.26(b) so no need for extra checks.


    Plenty of other fairly significant changes in there though, including a more explicit statement about parental consent for nights away, plus the need to inform parents of which leaders are attending an NA event.

    Also: permission needed for laser games.

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    Apologies, I didn't read this carefully enough. The reference to 3.26b means that the "once a week or four times in a 30 day period" requirement still applies, so I think there is actually no change here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo62 View Post
    I run a cub pack, and I expect parents to help with programme delivery on an occasional basis. The proposal seems to be that all of these would have to undergo a DBS check. Apart from being impractical, would it not also be illegal?
    That's not my understanding of the rules.

    The updated rules you linked to refer to Rule 3.26(b), which says which adults you need to DBS. The relevant one to parents helping with programme delivery on an occasional basis are that they only need a DBS if:
    > may be helping out once a week (or on fouroccasions in a thirty-day period) or morefrequently; or
    > will have unsupervised access to young people.

    So if they don't help out on more than 4 occasions in a 30 day period then as long as they don't have unsupervised access to YP, they don't need to be DBSed. That's not a change, that's the rules that have been running for a few years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo62 View Post
    Apologies, I didn't read this carefully enough. The reference to 3.26b means that the "once a week or four times in a 30 day period" requirement still applies, so I think there is actually no change here.
    I can see why you were confused though. From initial inspection I had the same interpretation as you, until I went digging.

    One year they're going to need to have a rewrite to clean up all these inter-related rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo62 View Post
    They don't include the wording for other sections, but I presume they are same as for Beavers
    I didn't know whether I could presume that - although obviously they'd be in the same spirit - so I've fed back that the sections are missing from the draft.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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    The confusion they have not removed is that an 'Occasional Helper' is someone who 'frequently' helps (ie 4 times per 30 days). The role needs a different name, such as 'Registered Helper'.


    The changes generally seem reasonable at first look.

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    Things I've noticed so far:

    1) Really need to poke assistant cub leaders into finishing modules 1-4 in a hurry so we can actually run without me being there.
    2) Should probably get all of the people who are currently running beavers (that is: the cub leaders) put down as beaver leaders officially.
    3) Need to tell parents which leaders are going on camp in advance, which seems mildly annoying and just one more mostly-irrelevant thing to remember.

    Nothing else that will really effect us.

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    This bit

    have parental consent (method to be
    determined by the leader) in which parents
    are informed of key information about the
    event including which leaders are present;


    I would understand a requirement to tell.parents who are the leaders in charge of the Event. That's common sense.

    I don't understand the need to tell.parents all leaders on an event. What is the aim here.

    Logical conclusion of this; DC arrives on camp to say hello. Permit holder turns him away as parents do not know about this extra leader being present at the event?



    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    This bit

    have parental consent (method to be
    determined by the leader) in which parents
    are informed of key information about the
    event including which leaders are present;


    I would understand a requirement to tell.parents who are the leaders in charge of the Event. That's common sense.

    I don't understand the need to tell.parents all leaders on an event. What is the aim here.

    Logical conclusion of this; DC arrives on camp to say hello. Permit holder turns him away as parents do not know about this extra leader being present at the event?



    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    See also district/county camps/jamborees etc.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    I don't understand the need to tell.parents all leaders on an event. What is the aim here.

    Logical conclusion of this; DC arrives on camp to say hello. Permit holder turns him away as parents do not know about this extra leader being present at the event?
    This is to allow snowflake millennial helicopter parents who want a say in how things are run (but don't have time to volunteer) for their precious prince(ss) to decide in advance that little Smiffy won't be going on the sleepover as their favourite leader isn't there, thus denying them the opportunity to be more resilient. Or even better to enable them to adopt that soft concerned voice and ask their little bundle of specialness "oooh, are you *sure* you still want to go on this camp? That nice leader Baloo isn't going. No? Ok. That's okay, never mind [strokes hair gently], you say home with mummy wummy and daddy waddy"

    I'm partly jesting, but it would not surprise me in the least if in the younger sections there have been fallings out between parents and leaders because parents were shocked and disappointed that leaders they expected to be there weren't. Or sending kids off to district camps where there were no group leaders.

    And in all seriousness, does this not just encourage more "pick and choose" type behaviour?

    And actually, when the younger sections supply this list of leaders, is it:

    This camp will be led by:
    Raksha
    Mang
    Dodgy Dave
    Bagheera


    And while I'm here, so I've had a few Explorers apply for the contingent to Eurojam 2020....the leaders haven't even been selected yet! Are we really supposed to tell the parents? Are parents now allowed to change their minds once we tell them who the leaders are? What if we collect money and book places on activities? Are they entitled to a refund?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2017 - May 2018
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    i. As part of the planning process parents must be
    informed of no leaders being present and of the
    supervision arrangements for a residential event
    using an Event Passport and be satisfied with
    them prior to consenting to their child taking part.


    Surely the supervision arrangements are..."none" right? Either it's an event passport, and they're on their own, or it's a supervised camp, no passport. If I'm available on the end of a phone, I'm not supervising, I might be responsible, but I'm not supervising.

    And the way it's worded makes it sound like if they're not satisfied with the arrangements we need to change them, rather than not sending their child if they aren't happy with it? Or is it the usual wacky world of ambiguous POR rules?
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2017 - May 2018
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    And while I'm here, so I've had a few Explorers apply for the contingent to Eurojam 2020....the leaders haven't even been selected yet! Are we really supposed to tell the parents? Are parents now allowed to change their minds once we tell them who the leaders are? What if we collect money and book places on activities? Are they entitled to a refund?
    Dear Eurojam organising committee,

    Please could you provide a list of all the leaders who will be present at the jamboree? My national association requires our youth members parents to be informed of which leaders will be present at overnight events when obtaining parental consent.

    Many thanks
    James

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    Ok so we actually do give out a final info sheet for our NA events which includes those going on the event inc Leaders but we usually only do this a week or so before the event and by that stage we would have expected to have recieved at least a non refundable deposit if not full fees. We would take the parents dropping off the kids as consent but they don't really have much option to withdraw their kid based on which Leaders are going without losing the fee for the event.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    i would love to know what problem they are trying to solve with this - is it to reassure parents that there will be sufficient competent leaders on site? To allow cubs to avoid camps with the shouty Scout leader?

    If it has to be included then it certainly needs rewording to define (1) scope of the list (ie who at a district camp/jamboree should it apply to? - is it only those leaders who will be camping as part of the relevent Group/Contingent/Unit, plus details of the Leader/organisation in Charge of the event?) and (2) to recognise the need for flexibility - the leader who has to drop out at the last minute due to illness / family / work, and the helpful Scout leader friend from another section/group/district who gets a phonecall on Thursday night and steps into the breech and helps out.
    "Rach..... what do I do with the instant whip once it's boiling???"

    AESL Phoenix (Afon) Cardiff
    SAGGA
    Birmingham Uni Scout and Guide Club (BUSAG) and SSAGO chairman many years ago....

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