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Thread: Rules cubs sleepover

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    Rules cubs sleepover

    Hi can some.one clarify the rules for a indoor sleepover over for cubs please.
    I know ratio is 1:6 min of 2adults.
    I know separate changing areas.
    The bit I want to know is the actual sleep bit.
    As the hall I'm using this time is just 1 big room.
    So how can I separate us leaders, young leaders and the cubs

    Can I do so cubs at 1 and.
    Yl in middle
    Leaders at top on stage area

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    I know ratio is 1:6 min of 2adults.
    1:8, plus a leader in charge.

    The bit I want to know is the actual sleep bit.
    As the hall I'm using this time is just 1 big room.
    So how can I separate us leaders, young leaders and the cubs

    Can I do so cubs at 1 and.
    Yl in middle
    Leaders at top on stage area
    All three must be separated. I would not consider "different bits of the same room" to be separated. Putting some sort of barriers in between, or putting some/all of the groups in tents (inside) would be more like it.



    If you have a permit, you should already know this stuff. If not, you need a permit holder. Ask them. In all cases, your local nights away advisors are the experts on the topic.

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judaakela View Post
    Hi can some.one clarify the rules for a indoor sleepover over for cubs please.
    I know ratio is 1:6 min of 2adults.
    I know separate changing areas.
    The bit I want to know is the actual sleep bit.
    As the hall I'm using this time is just 1 big room.
    So how can I separate us leaders, young leaders and the cubs

    Can I do so cubs at 1 and.
    Yl in middle
    Leaders at top on stage area
    There needs to be barriers - we have previously done this with gazebos, pop-up tents, and/or tarps hanging over ropes. It shouldn't be difficult to achieve, and something your permit holder should be fully aware of.
    Chris Hawes, District Media Manager, Watford North Scout District and Watford Scouts; Group Secretary and Webmaster, 9th North Watford Scout Group.
    Web designer of free Scouting templates, Scouting Themes 4 WordPress.

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    I would agree with Chris that this is my understanding of the rules.

    however, when you take a step back and look at it.... how crazy is that rule? What does it do to improve safeguarding?

    lets assume you have one female young leader, 20 cubs, and 3 male leaders, one of whom is 19.

    If the room is open and everyone is in one room, there is no way that any harm can come to anyone as its all visible. Separate changing facilities are available in the toilets, or curtains can be drawn across during changing times.

    If the area is segregated with some form of screens, the 17 year old young leader is now on her own. In the night it is now very easy for the 19 year old leader to sneak into the same space as the YL with relative privacy.

    Does the segregation actually protect anyone? or does it increase the risk?

    I'm not saying you shouldn't follow TSA's rules if you're a member of TSA... but if you were writing the rules for yourself, would you come to the same conclusion that TSA have?

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    Why is some of this stuff hidden in a book you have to buy*? I mean, I think I know what I think I know, but I like to check these things, I can't find anything that says all sleeping in the same room is verboten, or what measures you might take if you do plan that, whether it's just advice, or a rule, or a should, or a must. I think in the book somewhere it says about not bunking down together, and steps you could take if it's unavoidable but...it'd be really nice if it was at least an online PDF you could search through if you needed a reminder or something. I mean, I've even bought the latest version, but obviously I don't carry it with me.

    Why is the nights away book a sacred text that must only be physical, yet the young leader training materials are all online (now)?

    Sorry, gripe over.

    * unless my google skills are failing me this morning.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Why is some of this stuff hidden in a book you have to buy*? I mean, I think I know what I think I know, but I like to check these things, I can't find anything that says all sleeping in the same room is verboten, or what measures you might take if you do plan that, whether it's just advice, or a rule, or a should, or a must. I think in the book somewhere it says about not bunking down together, and steps you could take if it's unavoidable but...it'd be really nice if it was at least an online PDF you could search through if you needed a reminder or something. I mean, I've even bought the latest version, but obviously I don't carry it with me.

    Why is the nights away book a sacred text that must only be physical, yet the young leader training materials are all online (now)?

    Sorry, gripe over.

    * unless my google skills are failing me this morning.
    Further evidence to support the notion that there are too many rules?

    Plus what 'campwarden' said - it's a daft rule anyway.

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    Your Google skills are failing - it's on the Yellow Card!

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Your Google skills are failing - it's on the Yellow Card!
    Ah yes, of course...googles "scout yellow card"

    First link, html web page version, no date, but links to the Oct 2016 PDF

    Second link, v.5 2012

    Both "Do have separate sleeping accommodation for young people, adults and Young Leaders working with a younger section."

    Third link, scout shop, out of stock

    4th, discredited Jan 2018 edition
    "Do have appropriate sleeping arrangements and changing facilities for young people, adults and Young Leaders"

    5th, scout blog about safe spaces and safeguarding

    6th scout page about safeguarding

    7th Scouthelp(???) copy from 2007

    8th March 2018 discussion on escouts about the wording being wrong.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
    http://www.jambowlree.org

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    Well, In the past, I have had adults one end of the hall. Kids at the other end of the hall, the divider a row of chairs.

    I have also had everyone in the same hall, because there was no other option.

    You sometimes need to be pragmatic and do your best to comply. But the rules ay they have to be separated - so explain the situation to the parents, give them the information and let them make the choice.

    I don't wish to be in the same room as the kids, but, for one night in the odd blue moon, dealt with pragmatically, it isn't going to do any harm.

    I know of one DC who ended up with a party all sleeping on the same raised bed in a bunkhouse. He arranged it MF from Adult down... that way everyone was in the same boat. His alternative was a walk back down the mountan at night.
    Ewan Scott

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    On the odd occaision where ive been on a night away and all thats been available is the odd hall, theres usualy been some workaround- from sleeping in a store room, to using tables/chairs to make a makeshift divider - double stacked tables, with a curtain/sheet draped over, to a line of chairs, to tables on the side, and at last resort, a row of bags halfway in the hall with the YP at one end, and the adults at the other

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    If you have small tents just pitch them indoors, and the leaders sleep up the other end - not that you'll get much sleep - we usually sat outside around the fire and did an all nighter. Remember rules are there for good reasons but sometimes you have to use your judgement with what you have at the time. I've never been that worried about mixed sleeping at the cub age, the boys will keep as far as possible away from girls on their own accord!

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    The Scout Association isn't worried about mixed sleeping at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneiros View Post
    The Scout Association isn't worried about mixed sleeping at all...
    But I have a recollection it at least recognises that parents might be worried, and suggests informing parents so they are aware.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    One of our Cub packs just has the boys and girls sleep on opposite sides of the hall.

    I know talking to my boys and girls they prefer (generally) to have different areas to sleep in. The way I normally get around that is to hang up a backing curtain and a stage curtain that I purchased when I did a show in our hut between them. We've a number of lines that cross the hall so it is just a case of getting a ladder out and tying it on to some of the fixings for those lines. It gives that little bit of extra privacy. In terms of leaders we usually sleep in the entrance hall and the upstairs room. The entrance hall has the advantages that it is the first area the Cubs reach if they are worried about anything and can't sort it out themselves. If I'm having problems settling any Cubs I tend to bring them out in to that area with the other adults and talk to them for a bit before encouraging them to go back to bed. I find slow careful reassurance works best. Often encourage them to lay on my camp bed whilst I / other leaders talk to them too as that way they are more likely to start feeling sleepy. It is normally home sickness related but if you can distract them I tend to find that they forget about it and manage to settle. Cub age need that little bit more reassurance than Scouts (which is the age range I started with). It is all just a case of making sure that there are plenty of people around so you and the young person are safe.

    It is interesting to note that I've worked at a few special needs schools and they didn't have any rules about seperate areas for adults and young people. I can see why the rules exist but do think there are times when they would be reassured by adults being a bit closer by. I know I've laid amongst them (again with other leaders nearby) to help them settle before. We've read bedtime stories too. It is all about finding what works for the young people in your care. Anyway talking about sleep it is what I should go and do now...
    Group: 1st Framwellgate Moor Scout Group - Durham City and District - Durham Scout County.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneiros View Post
    The Scout Association isn't worried about mixed sleeping at all...
    So imagine one night it lashes down, campsite floods but thankfully the local church hall is available at very short notice - with great relief eveyone beds down in said hall for the night - glad of a dry space. Presumably no-one would question anything in this arrangement - its an emergency. (Been there, done that)

    So why is this scenario different from actually planning to sleep in one large hall? Exactly what safeguarding is going to be breached by being able to see everyone at all times. I can quite appreciate not wanting to have to listen to giggling cubs or Akela's snoring all night but where exactly is the risk? The privacy aspect is important and is achieved by ensuring somewhere private to change/wash etc.

    Whereas the 17 year old female YL referred to above by campwarden is now located in her own room on her own, rather than the general hall, is in my mind far more at risk safeguarding wise - although assuming we don't trust the 19 year old, why have we allowed him on the event in the first place?

    Common sense should prevail please
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

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