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Thread: Trashed Scout Hut

  1. #16
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    There is also the issue that what you have may not be rebuildable, as Building Regulations might not allow it. If you've got say a 1930s wooden building, you might have a job replacing it for its insurable value.
    Our insurers took this into account. Broker was very good. used to be DC... A good DC.
    Ewan Scott

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    Scout Leader (Bosun) Nick's Avatar
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    A couple of years ago we were discussing our contents insurance at an exec meeting and we realized that the sum insured would have just about replaced the 2 mess tents and nothing else. Did a comprehensive inventory listing everything on a spreadsheet and had to increase the sum insured 5 fold. Very easy to overlook things and not realize what it costs to replace especially if the members of the exec aren't familiar with all of the equipment the SL and GSL have squirreled away over the years!

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    Of topic but ...

    What insurers to people use? We use Unity at present as it appears to be the one that HQ recommend - but a recent experience of replacing our trailer following an accident has raised concern over Unity for us and we are considering alternatives.

    What are other groups experience?

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    Of topic but ...

    What insurers to people use? We use Unity at present as it appears to be the one that HQ recommend - but a recent experience of replacing our trailer following an accident has raised concern over Unity for us and we are considering alternatives.

    What are other groups experience?

    We used a Broker who found us the best deal that gave us the best cover.

    Unity is expensive. I have not used Unity for contents or buildings, but I have used it for travel, and it was outrageously expensive compared to a commercial provider. I also asked Unity for a quote for our PL insurance, I still laugh when I think of their quote.

    I currently have 5m PL and Employers Liability for 50 kids, from age 5 - 18, and the EL covers the adults - for 356, (actually, just realised that we are close to needing to upgrade to cover more than 50 kids), Unity quoted around 1500 and restricted our activities. I asked why they were restricting activities that they covered for Scouts, and they said it was company policy. We insure through AJ Gallaghers, if anyone wants to take a look at what is available. We have to use mutiple Insurers to cover all the bases, but still cheaper than paying AMS to TSA.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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  7. #20
    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    Of topic but ...

    What insurers to people use? We use Unity at present as it appears to be the one that HQ recommend - but a recent experience of replacing our trailer following an accident has raised concern over Unity for us and we are considering alternatives.

    What are other groups experience?
    I believe we use Salvation Army Insurance for our district campsite. Of course, you only find out if it's a good deal when you claim, but it was considerably cheaper than Unity.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
    All sections, all countries, runs December 2018 - May 2019
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    Very interesting topic as I renew my hut's insurance today from my office in a London commercial broker.

    I think things have changed a lot in the industry. There was a time when there were true insurance brokers who actually properly reviewed the risk, now insurers do it like common house insurance and just apply blanket generalisations to everything.

    In the past our old HQ was an asbestos shack which was to all intents and purposes uninsurable. We had cover for it's value, which was about 10p, but covering the rebuild cost of 150k was impossible because of the cost. Nonetheless we were still secretly wishing it wpuld burn down. Now, due to the above that's less of an issue and everyone - rightly - expects people to insure the rebuild cost, nonetheless a shocking amount of groups do not. And not to criticise anyone but the full rebuild cost must include things like double glazing, disabled loos, etc - whether or not your old HQ had them is irrelevant.

    For those asking for competition to Unity, im not actually recommending them but try Alan Boswell or Access Insurance as both have schemes specifically for scouts.

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    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Thinking myself lucky now, as we dont have a building, we run our bushcraft program outdoors at MK Adventurers

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    Our hut is insured for 470k, which is based on what it cost to build, 4 years ago, plus a bit more for inflation and so we could hire a better builder if we needed to rebuild. And 21k of equipment and 11k of building contents. Our premium is 950, so some of the other figures sound high, but perhaps it varies depending on the location? (It certainly isn't based on claims record, because we had a 50k claim for water leak damage.)

    This is with SAGIC (Sally Army), through broker Access Insurance. (Alan Boswell are another agent representing SAGIC.) The premium includes a 15% discount in return for committing to renew for two years (and they in turn commit to hold the price). This makes them cheaper than the others I found, such as Unity and Ansvar (the latter through Towergate).

    Unity's policy seemed riddled with conditions that are unrealistic for a scout group, which is surprising for the in-house insurer. I preferred to go for a policy that is more straightforward, so I could feel sure we are covered.

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  13. #24
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    Wow 470k that must be one hell of a scout hut. Our 200m2 hut cost 140k - Although to be fair it is very utilitarian.

  14. #25
    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Did a comprehensive inventory listing everything on a spreadsheet and had to increase the sum insured 5 fold. Very easy to overlook things and at it costs to replace especially if the members of the exec aren't familiar with all of the equipment the SL and GSL have squirreled away over the years!
    Except that every year an inventory should be completed with the annual accounts, and the insurance valuation checked, otherwise the trustees are not doing their job. What, they've not done mod 1E? You'll be telling me they haven't done GDPR training next........
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W View Post
    Except that every year an inventory should be completed with the annual accounts, and the insurance valuation checked, otherwise the trustees are not doing their job. What, they've not done mod 1E? You'll be telling me they haven't done GDPR training next........
    Far easier surely for the inventory to be updated when capital items are purchased or disposed of, rather than having to retake a full inventory every year.

    I am sure most Scout Groups dont go down to the precise detail of how many tennis balls are in the box or how many felt tips there are, but for expensive items, those that would really matter in an insurance claim (tents, stoves, computer equipment, tables, etc) its probably quite easy for the QM, Treasurer or GSL to update a spreadsheet as they are bought or sold/binned.

    Many years ago a group i was involved in had one copy of the inventory. It was on paper, in a folder. Kept in stores. Had there been a fire, it would have been one of the first things to burn! I'm sure most people now run their inventories on a spreadsheet (or on something like OSM) - but if its on a device that is stored at the HQ, make sure its backed up off site. An inventory is no use if it is destroyed in the fire/flood or stolen in the burglary!
    Last edited by campwarden; 03-12-2018 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pepper View Post
    Wow 470k that must be one hell of a scout hut. Our 200m2 hut cost 140k - Although to be fair it is very utilitarian.
    Not as flash as you might expect, for that much cash. Judge for yourself: harpendenhall.org

    However, it is 300 sq m ground floor, plus two upstairs rooms. And we are in a very expensive part of the country. We actually paid about 300k, but this reflects a builder who, we realised, had bid low to try to move up from simple house extensions. The other bids were around 350k, so we insured based on this, plus a bit of inflation, plus VAT. The insurer insisted that we add VAT, even though VAT would not apply, due to charitable purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanOpinion View Post
    Not as flash as you might expect, for that much cash. Judge for yourself: harpendenhall.org

    However, it is 300 sq m ground floor, plus two upstairs rooms. And we are in a very expensive part of the country. We actually paid about 300k, but this reflects a builder who, we realised, had bid low to try to move up from simple house extensions. The other bids were around 350k, so we insured based on this, plus a bit of inflation, plus VAT. The insurer insisted that we add VAT, even though VAT would not apply, due to charitable purposes.
    I think Vat is only exempt on newbuilds. If you were knocking completely down and starting from scratch you might get away with VAT. But I think even if you reuse the original foundations, that counts as repairing rather than a new build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I think Vat is only exempt on newbuilds. If you were knocking completely down and starting from scratch you might get away with VAT. But I think even if you reuse the original foundations, that counts as repairing rather than a new build.
    True, although reusing foundations is OK. VAT Notice 708 3.2.1 says "A qualifying building is constructed when it is built from scratch, and, before construction starts, any pre-existing building is demolished completely to ground level (cellars, basements and the ‘slab’ at ground level may be retained)"

    If the damage to the building was limited, so we could reuse some of the building, then VAT would apply. But we would need less rebuilding work, so the cost ex-VAT would be lower. So even with VAT added I can't see how the cost would be anywhere close to 470k.

    Anyway, they would not budge on this, but I don't think the extra premium was a lot, so I gave in. I decided that if we ever need to do a full rebuild we would not opt to zero-rate it, so we would not have any restrictions on usage of the hall over the 10 years following the rebuild.
    Last edited by IvanOpinion; 05-12-2018 at 11:37 AM.

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  22. #30
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I had an ideal Scout hut architect designed about 15 years ago. The estimated build cost was 440,000. - It included a main hall, with stage, kitchen, store rooms, changing rooms, toilets, climbing wayy, upstairs meeting room, and the ability to isolate the upper meeting room from the man hall. It had a suspended floor, ful insulation, solar panels, heat exchange pump etc.. I guess that in today's climate it would be nearer 1m.

    If you build a basic hall, you can get it cheaply. If you build for a purpose with full facilities, you pay premium prices. The youth centre that we use was converted from two squash courts, Still cost around 300,000.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

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