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Thread: Minibus abroad

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konica View Post
    I can't recall the specific reasons but it was because it was not a photocard licence and thus ID could not be proved. We were in a hired 3.5t panel van and I was fully licenced. Even if it had been a minibus, i still would have been licensed. But my co driver was not.
    Sounds like a clueless hire company. Of course ID could be proven, show a passport alongside it.

    The licence was legally valid and therefore both of you were licenced. It may simply have been against the policy of a clueless hire company to hire to someone with a paper licence, or possibly even a clueless front desk clerk who simply hadn't seen one before or had made his own mind up.

    Plenty of people hire cars and vans abroad using non-photo driving licences all the time. Not everyone has changed over - if you haven't moved house since the photo licences came in, you didn't have to change it. And there are arguments not to - the cost of the 10 yearly renewal being one. Though the photocard is useful ID if your lifestyle requires that.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 17-12-2018 at 10:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Sounds like a clueless hire company. Of course ID could be proven, show a passport alongside it.

    The licence was legally valid and therefore both of you were licenced. It may simply have been against the policy of a clueless hire company to hire to someone with a paper licence, or possibly even a clueless front desk clerk who simply hadn't seen one before or had made his own mind up.

    Plenty of people hire cars and vans abroad using non-photo driving licences all the time. Not everyone has changed over - if you haven't moved house since the photo licences came in, you didn't have to change it. And there are arguments not to - the cost of the 10 yearly renewal being one. Though the photocard is useful ID if your lifestyle requires that.
    I am surprised that the government requires photo ID cards to be updated every 10 years, but has no real program to sunset the paper license other than waiting for those that hold them to die.

    I would have expected they would do a free, compulsary, exchange to a photocard license by a set deadline for all paper license holders.

    Someone I know who works for a hire company frequently moans that the online license check system doesnt verify the photo. Doing so would make it virtually impossible to produce a fake license, and would mean that they could easily verify the ID of the customers.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I am surprised that the government requires photo ID cards to be updated every 10 years, but has no real program to sunset the paper license other than waiting for those that hold them to die.
    Or, less dramatically, move house.
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I am surprised that the government requires photo ID cards to be updated every 10 years, but has no real program to sunset the paper license other than waiting for those that hold them to die.

    I would have expected they would do a free, compulsary, exchange to a photocard license by a set deadline for all paper license holders.

    Someone I know who works for a hire company frequently moans that the online license check system doesnt verify the photo. Doing so would make it virtually impossible to produce a fake license, and would mean that they could easily verify the ID of the customers.
    I sort of assumed it was to do with how it was linking in with other DB's - passports for example. Or a more nefarious backdoor ID card scheme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I sort of assumed it was to do with how it was linking in with other DB's - passports for example. Or a more nefarious backdoor ID card scheme.
    We're going to need something, nefarious or not - DBS checks are becoming increasingly difficult with almost all bills and banking electronic now - if you get an applicant who doesn't drive, doesn't travel abroad or has lost their original birth certificate (goodness knows why that, with no photo, counts as Group 1) you can very quickly get stuck.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    We're going to need something, nefarious or not - DBS checks are becoming increasingly difficult with almost all bills and banking electronic now - if you get an applicant who doesn't drive, doesn't travel abroad or has lost their original birth certificate (goodness knows why that, with no photo, counts as Group 1) you can very quickly get stuck.
    Possible tie in with Tax data? So National Insurance number? At the end of the day (I suppose), people have to understand, that if they want to volunteer they'll need to be PVG'd or DBS'd, and for that they need to have ID. If they don't, then they can't.

    Same goes with ID cards, I don't necessarily mind them, but I minded the cost and the mandatory nature of them - and how much data they held...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    people have to understand, that if they want to volunteer they'll need to be PVG'd or DBS'd, and for that they need to have ID. If they don't, then they can't
    Then prepare for the voluntary sector to collapse.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Then prepare for the voluntary sector to collapse.
    Really?

    It would have done so long before now if ID was a significant problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I sort of assumed it was to do with how it was linking in with other DB's - passports for example. Or a more nefarious backdoor ID card scheme.
    I understood that the poster you were replying to wasn't talking about applying for a licence as they are likened to passport office if you give permission.

    The issue that he was discussing as I see it is that if you go to hire a vehicle the vendor can only enter details (for which I assume there is a cost) and get some basic details back to allow them to decide to hire or not. What the vendor cannot see is the photo that goes with the licence to be able to see if the licence is a clone with a new photo. They need to be able to see what was issued and not just what is shown to them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    I am surprised that the government requires photo ID cards to be updated every 10 years, but has no real program to sunset the paper license other than waiting for those that hold them to die.

    I would have expected they would do a free, compulsary, exchange to a photocard license by a set deadline for all paper license holders.

    Someone I know who works for a hire company frequently moans that the online license check system doesnt verify the photo. Doing so would make it virtually impossible to produce a fake license, and would mean that they could easily verify the ID of the customers.
    I suspect when the numbers get to a more reasonable amount they may well do that.

    Lets face it they recon that about 5% of the population move each year so that will reduce it a little, those that die, those that reach 70 and need to update, those with medical or wish to add groups.

    The people who got a paper licence just before the cut off date (2000) who were 17 then could technically have a paper licence until they are 70 would drag it out a bit but I'm sure many of those will have one of the other reasons why it needs changing before then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Possible tie in with Tax data? So National Insurance number? At the end of the day (I suppose), people have to understand, that if they want to volunteer they'll need to be PVG'd or DBS'd, and for that they need to have ID. If they don't, then they can't.

    Same goes with ID cards, I don't necessarily mind them, but I minded the cost and the mandatory nature of them - and how much data they held...
    NINO numbers are not proof of identity (it tells you that on the card) and you need to enter it for DBS anyway which just proves that you know one that relates to the person you are claiming to be, just like bank letters, birth certs not issued at birth but even those can be found and used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Really?

    It would have done so long before now if ID was a significant problem.
    It's more of a problem now than it was, now most people don't have secondary ID like paper bank statements and bills any more.

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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    It's more of a problem now than it was, now most people don't have secondary ID like paper bank statements and bills any more.

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    And it gets really annoying when banks and the like act like it is compulsory to have photo id.

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  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    It's more of a problem now than it was, now most people don't have secondary ID like paper bank statements and bills any more.

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    You can D/L paper statements and print them off. Its exactly the same document as you'd get through the post. Cant speak for all banks and power companies, but all those I've dealt with (about half a dozen or so) had that function.

  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    You can D/L paper statements and print them off. Its exactly the same document as you'd get through the post. Cant speak for all banks and power companies, but all those I've dealt with (about half a dozen or so) had that function.
    Not acceptable to the DBS.

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Not acceptable to the DBS.

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    Really? There is nothing to discern the D/L'd pdf statement to that which you get in the post, same with utility bills - or at least the ones I've had. (There isn't anything on DBS guidance that precludes D/L'd statements...)

    In fact, it's what I used for PVG here and for office of the public guardian court for parents.

  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    (There isn't anything on DBS guidance that precludes D/L'd statements...)
    Yes, it does - it quite clearly says: "you must not accept documentation printed from the internet e.g. internet bank statement". Therefore if you know it is one and accept it, you have committed a criminal offence with a possible 4 figure fine, as has a person who submitted it but didn't tell you.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...y-applications

    In fact, it's what I used for PVG here and for office of the public guardian court for parents.
    It's quite possible that PVG is different as it exists under a completely different legal system. But a bit of Googling seems to suggest that it isn't different and you should not be doing this.

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