Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 48

Thread: Dealing with 'That one child'

  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,972
    Thanks
    1,399
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 795 Posts
    I think Scouts is protected to a large degree from the worst kids out there, I think they're probably put off by the stigma that goes with Scouts. While I'm not saying what Ewan does is a youth club (by which I mean an open door, drop-in type of resource for young folk), perhaps his is a more challenging offer due to Navigators not having the the same baggage Scouts does.

    Sure I've said this before, but I ran a youth cafe for a bit (years ago), and it was wild. We got ordinary kids in, even kids who were on holiday in the town, but we wanted the wild ones, it was part of our remit. On a Saturday night, we'd have a monthly disco. We'd go out of our way to get the drunk kids in - we wanted them there, because if they were, then they were indoors and not quite so much at risk. We did all the substance outreach stuff, the sexual health stuff blah blah blah - stuff TSA wouldn't touch with a barge poll.

    The full range of behaviours which exists in adults, pretty much exists in young folk too. All the avarice, the dishonesty and to an extent the psychopathy. I think Scouts only occasionally dips it's toes in those waters. Perhaps there are groups in certain areas that do deal with it, but for the most part (and I still don't believe I've seen the worst of kid's behaviours), I think we have an easy time comparatively.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    I'll disagree with you on this Ewan - there is a solution to every child, but whether that solution is worth the cost is the issue. For many of us it is way beyond our resources/patience/time.
    No there isn't. You can't cure psychopathy, you can't treat it. If it comes coupled with certain other traits - there is nothing you or anyone can do. (Unless indefinite incarceration in a secure unit counts as solution...)

    Even if it's not some chemical/brain wiring thing. Some circumstances can be intractable.

    It's nice to think there are always solutions, but having spent time with social work sitting in on some harrowing stuff - sometimes there just isn't a solution. Some young people are just on a collision course.

  2. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    90
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 45 Times in 28 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    I'll disagree with you on this Ewan - there is a solution to every child, but whether that solution is worth the cost is the issue. For many of us it is way beyond our resources/patience/time.
    Let's try something more precise, then: there isn't always a solution to the family. If the parents are just as bad or worse, there isn't much you can do about it.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,471
    Thanks
    381
    Thanked 2,824 Times in 1,524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    I'll disagree with you on this Ewan - there is a solution to every child, but whether that solution is worth the cost is the issue. For many of us it is way beyond our resources/patience/time.
    I was going to explain, but instead''

    Antisocial personality disorder is defined by a pervasive and persistent disregard for morals, social norms, and the rights and feelings of others.[9] Individuals with this personality disorder will typically have no compunction in exploiting others in harmful ways for their own gain or pleasure and frequently manipulate and deceive other people, achieving this through wit and a fašade of superficial charm or through intimidation and violence.[10] They may display arrogance, think lowly and negatively of others, and lack remorse for their harmful actions and have a callous attitude to those they have harmed.[9][11] Irresponsibility is a core characteristic of this disorder: they can have significant difficulties in maintaining stable employment as well as fulfilling their social and financial obligations, and people with this disorder often lead exploitative, unlawful, or parasitic lifestyles.[9][11][12][13]

    Those with antisocial personality disorder are often impulsive and reckless, failing to consider or disregarding the consequences of their actions. They may repeatedly disregard and jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others and place themselves and others in danger.[9][11][14] They are often aggressive and hostile and display a disregulated temper and can lash out violently with provocation or frustration.[9][13] Individuals are prone to substance abuse and addiction, and the abuse of various psychoactive substances is common in this population. These behaviors lead such individuals into frequent conflict with the law, and many people with ASPD have extensive histories of antisocial behavior and criminal infractions stemming back before adulthood.[9][11][12][13]

    Serious problems with interpersonal relationships are often seen in those with the disorder. Attachments and emotional bonds are weak, and interpersonal relationships often revolve around the manipulation, exploitation, and abuse of others.[9] While they generally have no problems in establishing relationships, they may have difficulties in sustaining and maintaining them.[12] Relationships with family members and relatives are often strained due to their behavior and the frequent problems that these individuals may get into.

    If you have someone who ticks all the boxes - get rid, let it be someone else's problem because unless you have access to specialist skills and possibly the ability to prescribe drugs, there is nothing that you can do.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Bushfella For This Useful Post:

    boballan (16-12-2018)

  5. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    242
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 62 Times in 40 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    there is a solution to every child, but whether that solution is worth the cost is the issue. For many of us it is way beyond our resources/patience/time.
    I would say whilst there probably is a "solution" to every child, I would also say that scouting (or similar activities) can't always provide that solution - because that simply isn't what we do. As others have mentioned there are some for whom we will make no difference to whatsoever, but there will be others whose lives we will change beyond recognition.
    James

  6. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,972
    Thanks
    1,399
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 795 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I was going to explain, but instead''

    Antisocial personality disorder is defined by a pervasive and persistent disregard for morals, social norms, and the rights and feelings of others.[9] Individuals with this personality disorder will typically have no compunction in exploiting others in harmful ways for their own gain or pleasure and frequently manipulate and deceive other people, achieving this through wit and a fašade of superficial charm or through intimidation and violence.[10] They may display arrogance, think lowly and negatively of others, and lack remorse for their harmful actions and have a callous attitude to those they have harmed.[9][11] Irresponsibility is a core characteristic of this disorder: they can have significant difficulties in maintaining stable employment as well as fulfilling their social and financial obligations, and people with this disorder often lead exploitative, unlawful, or parasitic lifestyles.[9][11][12][13]

    Those with antisocial personality disorder are often impulsive and reckless, failing to consider or disregarding the consequences of their actions. They may repeatedly disregard and jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others and place themselves and others in danger.[9][11][14] They are often aggressive and hostile and display a disregulated temper and can lash out violently with provocation or frustration.[9][13] Individuals are prone to substance abuse and addiction, and the abuse of various psychoactive substances is common in this population. These behaviors lead such individuals into frequent conflict with the law, and many people with ASPD have extensive histories of antisocial behavior and criminal infractions stemming back before adulthood.[9][11][12][13]

    Serious problems with interpersonal relationships are often seen in those with the disorder. Attachments and emotional bonds are weak, and interpersonal relationships often revolve around the manipulation, exploitation, and abuse of others.[9] While they generally have no problems in establishing relationships, they may have difficulties in sustaining and maintaining them.[12] Relationships with family members and relatives are often strained due to their behavior and the frequent problems that these individuals may get into.

    If you have someone who ticks all the boxes - get rid, let it be someone else's problem because unless you have access to specialist skills and possibly the ability to prescribe drugs, there is nothing that you can do.
    This is one of those things that has to be experienced to be fully believed or understood.

    Unless we ourselves fall into the above category, we tend to project a level of morality and sanity on to the people we're dealing with which is pursuant with our own levels of morality and sanity.

    Until you have dealings with someone who displays socio or psychopathic tendencies, I don't think you can really know, because the behaviour set is so out of any normal sphere of recognition.

    Also, in a sense, with kids, it isn't possible to really diagnose fully the kind of syndromes as described above. Kids tend to be slightly sociopathic anyway (by no means all mind). It's a part of growing up. We've all seen when you open a tub of chocolates or biscuits, the way a group of kids will attack it if left to their own devices. Imagine that but writ large. William Golding's Lord of the Flies, while fiction, I think is instructive in taking things to a horrible yet logical end.

    With adults - and unfortunately I've had to deal with this in my family - it's even worse. Oddly enough, it's not just the person with the tendencies, if people around them are not aware, they become weaponized. Before you know it, your doubting your own sanity. It's such an incredibly corrosive thing.

    And each and every adult who is like that, was like that as a kid - they were just a wee bit more camouflaged because kids are a bit like that anyway until they grow out of it.

    Will Black's Psychopathic Cultures and Toxic Empires is another interesting read - he looks at it from a more anthropological POV, where as Jon Ronson's book is a bit more documentary.


    Edit** This also apposite - probably only because the Robber's Cave Experiment took place at a BSA camps site in the 50's. It was an experiment about group conflict, but it touches upon dynamics - which are driven by individuals then amplified in the group context. (This experiment has since been heavily criticised, you can kind of see why...) /edit**
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 17-12-2018 at 09:51 AM.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,471
    Thanks
    381
    Thanked 2,824 Times in 1,524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    This is one of those things that has to be experienced to be fully believed or understood.

    Unless we ourselves fall into the above category, we tend to project a level of morality and sanity on to the people we're dealing with which is pursuant with our own levels of morality and sanity.
    THIS


    I had never come across this, it is possible to cope with young people who display one or more symptoms. In essence, they are part of human development - how much can I get away with. The huge difference is the absolute lack of ability to differentiate between right and wrong, and therefore be incapable of remorse or indeed of changing their behaviour because they see no fault, no need to change. They are invariably, in their minds, correct.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  8. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,972
    Thanks
    1,399
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 795 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    THIS


    I had never come across this, it is possible to cope with young people who display one or more symptoms. In essence, they are part of human development - how much can I get away with. The huge difference is the absolute lack of ability to differentiate between right and wrong, and therefore be incapable of remorse or indeed of changing their behaviour because they see no fault, no need to change. They are invariably, in their minds, correct.
    Indeed.

    It's not a personality trait or a frame of mind or a mood. It's a neural disorder. Even then, it's problematic because you could say the same about the autistic spectrum - the difference is in how the symptoms then manifest themselves. You have a kid who manipulates - say, makes a false accusation - then smiles about it. To them, this is the same as another kid winning (say) at Fortnite and smiling about that. We see it as malicious because that is our interpretation - to them though, it's normal. They derive pleasure from completely different triggers than we might.

    It's fascinating stuff, and if you're working with kids, I think it's really handy to understand.

  9. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    90
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 45 Times in 28 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Indeed.

    It's not a personality trait or a frame of mind or a mood. It's a neural disorder. Even then, it's problematic because you could say the same about the autistic spectrum - the difference is in how the symptoms then manifest themselves. You have a kid who manipulates - say, makes a false accusation - then smiles about it. To them, this is the same as another kid winning (say) at Fortnite and smiling about that. We see it as malicious because that is our interpretation - to them though, it's normal. They derive pleasure from completely different triggers than we might.

    It's fascinating stuff, and if you're working with kids, I think it's really handy to understand.

    Autism tends to be almost the opposite in terms of the underlying stuff, actually: autistic people tend to have higher than average empathy, but a lack of understanding of social signals, which makes it hard to know if what they're doing is annoying someone else, whereas sociopaths tend to have an extremely good understanding of social signals, which they use to manipulate people to their own ends, because they don't have the empathy to tell them that they shouldn't do this.

  10. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,972
    Thanks
    1,399
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 795 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Autism tends to be almost the opposite in terms of the underlying stuff, actually: autistic people tend to have higher than average empathy, but a lack of understanding of social signals, which makes it hard to know if what they're doing is annoying someone else, whereas sociopaths tend to have an extremely good understanding of social signals, which they use to manipulate people to their own ends, because they don't have the empathy to tell them that they shouldn't do this.
    I know. I was just using it as an example of when behaviours can be misread. Often, the lack of understanding of social cues can be misinterpreted as a lack of empathy. Doesn't really matter what's going on beneath the surface, a lot of people only consider what they can see.

    The autistic spectrum is a lot broader and often comes with other disorders (we've had a fair bit of experience with Asbergers.) Psychological diagnoses are problematic in so far as, often health professionals don't agree with each other or with parents. It's all a bit vague really and more of a judgement call.

  11. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 74 Times in 44 Posts
    Just a hunch, but is this scout ADHD? Hyperactive, can't sit still, talks over everyone else. Trouble listening? Certainly is a possibility.

    Why not ask a parent what works best. Or ask if they'll help out. The fact that this scout keeps showing up means he likes the program. Believe it or not, it might also means he really appreciates what you're doing for him.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to MattR For This Useful Post:

    shiftypete (18-12-2018)

  13. #41
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,471
    Thanks
    381
    Thanked 2,824 Times in 1,524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by MattR View Post
    Just a hunch, but is this scout ADHD? Hyperactive, can't sit still, talks over everyone else. Trouble listening? Certainly is a possibility.

    Why not ask a parent what works best. Or ask if they'll help out. The fact that this scout keeps showing up means he likes the program. Believe it or not, it might also means he really appreciates what you're doing for him.

    Not always Matt.

    Parents were invisible and in denial.

    In extremis, we must put the wellbeing of others first.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  14. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,972
    Thanks
    1,399
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 795 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by MattR View Post
    Just a hunch, but is this scout ADHD? Hyperactive, can't sit still, talks over everyone else. Trouble listening? Certainly is a possibility.

    Why not ask a parent what works best. Or ask if they'll help out. The fact that this scout keeps showing up means he likes the program. Believe it or not, it might also means he really appreciates what you're doing for him.
    This doesn't sound too far from the mark actually.

    Apart from dosing the kid up with Ritilin (it does work, although with some caveats...) Other coping strategies are limiting stimulus for the child, giving them a single tasks to carry out on their own - simple things requiring routine and order, one-on-one working if possible.

    Attention Deficit Disorder (interesting or perhaps not) is treated with Ritilin (or was anyway) which is a stimulant. That sounds daft if you've got a kid who's already climbing the walls. But, the reason the are so combustable or unmanageable is because studies found with kids displaying ADD symptoms, the reasoning part of the brain (frontal cortex) wasn't as active as it should have been, causing them to not be able to focus or reason things out so well. Ritilin stimulates that part of the brain so they can. Have to say, for most of the kids I worked with, it was like night and day. They went from being really quite volatile to being really quite calm. Only thing I noticed was, there was a bit of a deadness behind their eyes. It was as if some essential part of their character had been suppressed - which is why parents (and the Church of Scientology) sometimes don't like it. That said, if you're kid has become so unmanageable that they've done something and been reported to the social services/children's panel/etc, then it's a compromise that might be worth making.

    The young people I worked with had an attention deficit diagnoses but no hyperactivity. We had a Scout for a while (years ago) and the advice was the same. More recently, we had a Scout who was very similar to the OP's description, although not anything like as disruptive, his mum withdrew him after we posted a message on fb about behaviour mentioning no names and it wasn't just him either (he wasn't even the worst as I recall)- which was a shame, I think he was just a wee bit highly strung. I'd just taken over and didn't get a chance to work with him at all (not that there would have been any guarantees there right enough...)

  15. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    133
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 74 Times in 44 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Not always Matt.

    Parents were invisible and in denial.

    In extremis, we must put the wellbeing of others first.
    You're right, if the parents don't want to help then it's another story. There is a lot of denial when it comes to adhd, or kids with unusual problems. I'm not saying this is adhd, just wondering.

    I've seen both sides of parents wanting to help with kids having unusual situations. When they do help it's amazing. Best of luck.

  16. #44
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,471
    Thanks
    381
    Thanked 2,824 Times in 1,524 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by MattR View Post
    You're right, if the parents don't want to help then it's another story. There is a lot of denial when it comes to adhd, or kids with unusual problems. I'm not saying this is adhd, just wondering.

    I've seen both sides of parents wanting to help with kids having unusual situations. When they do help it's amazing. Best of luck.

    We help where we can and have coped with various syndromes over the years to one extent or another. We often invest not inconsiderable effort in working with young people. Sometimes we have success, sometimes not so much. I find that in the "normal" range of "syndromes" there often comes a point where in order to move everyone along, there is a conflict with how we cope and the parent's expectations. EG. all Jimmy wants to do is play running around games and be noisy. When we do anything else he walks out - which is not acceptable for a number of reasons.

    We have difficulty getting parental help, even for those with special needs. It is as if they A/ want their child to develop with other kids, which is perfectly normal, or B/ being cynical, they want a break for a couple of hours, and sometimes, who can blame them.

    We have another individual who has been difficult to do much with. We have tried, but after our incident with the first earlier this year we have been more careful. In incident after incident, this individual was at the centre of the trouble. We have made a decision that we cannot cope and have refused continues membership. On hearing this half the group have come to tell us that had that person continued coming, they would have left.

    As volunteers, we have the absolute right to decide how we manage the membership for the benefit of all. If we cannot cope, or an individual poses a serious risk, then we must never feel guilty about exclusion or refusal. It isn't a nice thing to do, but sometimes, we have to take the step. I say this having spent 24/25 years refusing to exclude anyone and having paid the price.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  17. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,972
    Thanks
    1,399
    Thanked 1,094 Times in 795 Posts
    Yup.

    The thing is though, just as there are damaging ripples when that kid is in the group, removing them can also have repercussions and aftershocks - which may make it seem as if you jumped out of the fire and into the frying pan.

    Just thinking down the line of the potential ramifications if we chucked out our current vexatious wooden spoon... And I suppose, the effects on them and their family... It could be that the current status quo - while not ideal - is the least worst situation.

Similar Threads

  1. Lack of Respect and dealing with it
    By aidan's father in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 10-01-2011, 08:12 PM
  2. advice please on dealing with parents
    By tomahawk in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 18-03-2010, 07:55 PM
  3. Dealing with Bullying
    By richieg in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 16-10-2009, 02:28 PM
  4. dealing with the clowns ....
    By 19thPurley in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 28-03-2009, 01:15 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •