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Thread: 2019 Census

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Ummm...

    We sometimes don't invest new people until they've been in for months. However, they'll be on OSM as soon as they move up or start coming along.

    Not sure investitures should be a way point in this.
    The Annual Census is of Members (and Associate Members). They ain't a member till they're a member.

    In the case of young people, they become a member by making the Promise [POR 3.1 o]. Some Districts claim that an individual should be included in the Census when they have been attending for a certain number of weeks - this is incorrect.

    A young person moving between sections does, of course, remain a Member (and therefore included in the Census) even if they have not said their Promise in their new section.


    Paul

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  3. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    The Annual Census is of Members (and Associate Members). They ain't a member till they're a member.

    In the case of young people, they become a member by making the Promise [POR 3.1 o]. Some Districts claim that an individual should be included in the Census when they have been attending for a certain number of weeks - this is incorrect.

    A young person moving between sections does, of course, remain a Member (and therefore included in the Census) even if they have not said their Promise in their new section.


    Paul
    Yup.

    I've read that too. We rarely get walk-ins these days (waiting lists etc), but if we did, heck we've had kids who've waited six months to be invested for various reasons...

    They go on the census regardless.

  4. #138
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    I put in my numbers as the figures are on OSM. They wouldn't be in the meeting hall without being on OSM and this is the most accurate count we would have.

    As for invested or not, sometimes thats take a few weeks sometimes we remember on the last week of term when doing other presentations. Never really mattered to much to us. As a GSL I would never keep up with exactly who is and who isn't when filling in the census!

    My view is our membership is always the same. We have 5 sections always full with waiting lists and fill any gaps each term. I could probably save a few hundred quid if I manipulated it but why bother. Over all we'll get the benefit of the number of membership I put down during the year.
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  6. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Sorry, Shifty, I think that you are misguided in this. It doesn't actually matter when you invest, because you will equally pay AMS for some people who will leave. It is swings and roundabouts.
    It does matter when we invest as its a census of members not people who are trying out Beavers for a few weeks and may or may not stay. Its not my fault that TSA have mandated a census date which makes it impossible for external new starters at the start of term to be invested by the census date. if the census date was 1st March then we would have invested the new members if they had stayed and completed their memebrship badge requirements and they would be included on the census.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

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  7. #140
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    It does matter when we invest as its a census of members not people who are trying out Beavers for a few weeks and may or may not stay. Its not my fault that TSA have mandated a census date which makes it impossible for external new starters at the start of term to be invested by the census date. if the census date was 1st March then we would have invested the new members if they had stayed and completed their memebrship badge requirements and they would be included on the census.
    Not often that I would say you are wrong. But, you are wrong.

    It doesn't matter because, in a stable group there are as many leave as join through the year. In a growing group, you benefit, in a shrinking group you lose. So, in most cases, it doesn't actualy matter when you invest.

    100 members on Jan 31st = you pay 3,500 (say in AMS) ten join through the year, say in January the following year, but 10 leave in that same year, you still have 100 members t pay AMS for.

    If the group is growing, that 100 is still 3,500 but you add 10 during the year, they get a free ride till Jn 31st the following year. So it doesn't matter when you invest.

    If the group is shrinking, then you will pay more in AMS on the 31st Jan this year than you will next year. So you essentially lose in that scenario. That's how the cookie crumbles.

    Stable, or growing, it makes not one iota of difference when you register. Except, you save on a few quid on AMS if you hold back investing till the 1st Feb. But I refer to the Promise...
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  9. #141
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    It you are the kind of group who run by the book, and invest potential members within 3 or 4 weeks, then I think it is legitimate not to count them as members until they are invested. If it takes longer than that, then if you are charging them subs, then they are for all purposes a member. In my Explorer unit, we do not charge any subs until they are a member (although we do not always invest right away), until that time they are just tyre kickers.

  10. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    It you are the kind of group who run by the book, and invest potential members within 3 or 4 weeks, then I think it is legitimate not to count them as members until they are invested. If it takes longer than that, then if you are charging them subs, then they are for all purposes a member. In my Explorer unit, we do not charge any subs until they are a member (although we do not always invest right away), until that time they are just tyre kickers.
    This is pretty close to the mark. I think a wee bit of common sense is required. If you get a new start coming along a month before the census date, I think it's fair to not include them. However, if I had a kid moving up from Cubs (say), I'd include them.

    We lose out with subs too. Parents can pay once or twice during the year. I think (I should probably know this for sure, I've only been here for 25 years), in September and March? If a kid joins (new start, if they were in a previous section it doesn't count because they'd already have paid), then they're getting potentially 6 months scouting for free.

  11. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    This is pretty close to the mark. I think a wee bit of common sense is required. If you get a new start coming along a month before the census date, I think it's fair to not include them. However, if I had a kid moving up from Cubs (say), I'd include them.

    We lose out with subs too. Parents can pay once or twice during the year. I think (I should probably know this for sure, I've only been here for 25 years), in September and March? If a kid joins (new start, if they were in a previous section it doesn't count because they'd already have paid), then they're getting potentially 6 months scouting for free.
    In a group where finances are shared, then if they have already paid via the previous section then that isn't a problem. My experience with Explorers, where finances are not linked with the Scout troop, is that Scouts sometimes get 'thrown over the wall' just before the census, my view is that if they have never paid us any subs, and if they have only been for a couple of weeks and have not been invested in our unit, then they are not a member of our unit.

  12. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    In a group where finances are shared, then if they have already paid via the previous section then that isn't a problem. My experience with Explorers, where finances are not linked with the Scout troop, is that Scouts sometimes get 'thrown over the wall' just before the census, my view is that if they have never paid us any subs, and if they have only been for a couple of weeks and have not been invested in our unit, then they are not a member of our unit.
    But you then pay subs for those who left in the couple of months before? To make it fair?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

  13. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    In a group where finances are shared, then if they have already paid via the previous section then that isn't a problem. My experience with Explorers, where finances are not linked with the Scout troop, is that Scouts sometimes get 'thrown over the wall' just before the census, my view is that if they have never paid us any subs, and if they have only been for a couple of weeks and have not been invested in our unit, then they are not a member of our unit.
    Yup.

    Our Explorers was attached to the group, so subs just ran on. I see what you mean though... I suppose the only way round it, is to go back to my totally braw online system - which would have monthly granularity. There'd be very little overlap in terms of subs.

    Really, I have no idea why I'm not in charge.


  14. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    In a group where finances are shared, then if they have already paid via the previous section then that isn't a problem. My experience with Explorers, where finances are not linked with the Scout troop, is that Scouts sometimes get 'thrown over the wall' just before the census, my view is that if they have never paid us any subs, and if they have only been for a couple of weeks and have not been invested in our unit, then they are not a member of our unit.
    The census FAQ specifically addresses this and says that they are Explorers from day 1. It does not allow a break in membership between sections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    But you then pay subs for those who left in the couple of months before? To make it fair?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    No, we pay membership fees for everyone who is a member of our unit on 31st Jan. As it happens we are investing 3 this week, they visited us before Christmas and have paid subs for this term (they didn't pay any last term, but they only came for a few weeks). We have no problem declaring these even though the annual membership fees are more than our entire subs for this term.

    We now seem to have this sorted with the feeder troops. In the past we have them visit us in January, we would not declare them as our members, because at that point they would not have paid us any subs and would not be invested with us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pstretch View Post
    The census FAQ specifically addresses this and says that they are Explorers from day 1. It does not allow a break in membership between sections.
    When is day 1? When do they leave Scouts? - after completion of the Moving On Award, which is a Scout section award which involves attending the Explorer unit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    No, we pay membership fees for everyone who is a member of our unit on 31st Jan. As it happens we are investing 3 this week, they visited us before Christmas and have paid subs for this term (they didn't pay any last term, but they only came for a few weeks). We have no problem declaring these even though the annual membership fees are more than our entire subs for this term.

    We now seem to have this sorted with the feeder troops. In the past we have them visit us in January, we would not declare them as our members, because at that point they would not have paid us any subs and would not be invested with us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    When is day 1? When do they leave Scouts? - after completion of the Moving On Award, which is a Scout section award which involves attending the Explorer unit.
    A young person who was a Scout and is attending Explorer Scouts but has not yet been formally invested into Explorers Scout Unit should be recorded in an Explorer Scout Section on the census rather than the Scout Troop census.
    https://census.scouts.org.uk/census/assets/2019-faq.pdf
    https://census.scouts.org.uk/census/...guidance-2.pdf

  18. #149
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    Surely it should say IS a Scout rather than WAS a Scout, or is it more subtle than that? Otherwise, we would have to stop accepting Scouts during January, or charge termly subs before they start, which isn't unreasonable if the have actually left the Scout section.

  19. #150
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Except, you save on a few quid on AMS if you hold back investing till the 1st Feb. But I refer to the Promise...
    We are not "holding back" on investing, we usually invest on their 4th or 5th meeting which as I say is the soonest it is possible to invest given the requirements of the membership award. We follow the rules precisely (we don't disappear members between sections for example) but IMHO I would actually be being neglegent as a trustee if I incorrectly recorded non members as members on the census which has a financial cost to the Group.

    Peter Andrews ESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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