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Thread: 2019 Census

  1. #151
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    Go on then...

    All these 2019 census forms are different from when I last did a census. Are we ticking boxes on PDF's or is there a spreadsheet.

    Our GSL sent out parent forms, which seems unsuitable, given we have the info on OSM and can just look at them for everything else.

    Come to think of it, the last census I did was for Explorers last year, I haven't done a troop census before.

    The troop form on the Scout website for 2019 still has 2017 on it... Is that even the right one...

    Gee whiz...
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 31-01-2019 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Go on then...

    All these 2019 census forms are different from when I last did a census. Are we ticking boxes on PDF's or is there a spreadsheet.

    Our GSL sent out parent forms, which seems unsuitable, given we have the info on OSM and can just look at them for everything else.

    Come to think of it, the last census I did was for Explorers last year, I haven't done a troop census before.

    The troop form on the Scout website for 2019 still has 2017 on it... Is that even the right one...

    Gee whiz...
    The TSA's census submission is 100% online only. What are these' forms' you're referring to?

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  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by pstretch View Post
    The TSA's census submission is 100% online only. What are these' forms' you're referring to?
    Good question. I don't know.

    I just printed out the pdf of the online form - apparently it's just a screen print and ticked that off. The forms I got sent was a FAQ and ethnicity/disabilities form that I think is meant for parents if we didn't have records - which is a bit odd, because why wouldn't you have records...

    It's fine anyway, our GSL is very busy with family stuff just now. He's as exasperated by all of it as most people are. It's done now, we worked it out.

    Thanks.

  5. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Good question. I don't know.

    I just printed out the pdf of the online form - apparently it's just a screen print and ticked that off. The forms I got sent was a FAQ and ethnicity/disabilities form that I think is meant for parents if we didn't have records - which is a bit odd, because why wouldn't you have records...

    It's fine anyway, our GSL is very busy with family stuff just now. He's as exasperated by all of it as most people are. It's done now, we worked it out.

    Thanks.
    Fwiw, most people are not exasperated. It should be a very quick job for any group that is even halfway organised

    If you have OSM, it's an amazingly quick job.

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  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    Fwiw, most people are not exasperated. It should be a very quick job for any group that is even halfway organised

    If you have OSM, it's an amazingly quick job.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Exactly, people moan about census, but it's not difficult unless you make it difficult for yourself.

    Rule 66. A map and compass offers no protection against getting horribly lost.

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  8. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    Fwiw, most people are not exasperated. It should be a very quick job for any group that is even halfway organised

    If you have OSM, it's an amazingly quick job.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Sure.

    But we don't all operate in ideal circumstances. I'd say most people do find census exasperating, because it's such an archaic guddle. Looking at the 2019 census website - it has forms on it that are dated for the 2017 census. It has conflicting information, it has too much information. As a leader, it seems to be telling me how to fill in the online census, yet I didn't get any log in details. I ended up printing off a PDF of a screenshot of the web page that whoever did get a log in will have to fill out online. (But it's my fault for not being halfway organised...)

    The forms our GSL sent out to leaders are official TSA forms which ask about ethnicity and disability. We're supposed to send these out to parents (if we don't have OSM or - inexplicably - any records at all, or eyes and ears). They fill them out and we're supposed to do what with them? I see Scouts every week, I've even taken the time to get to know them, so I already know what their ethnicity is, and if they have any disabilities they want me to know about, I will know that too. So we have these pointless forms that only really serve to further muddy the waters.

    I have OSM, I keep my part of it up to date, but not everyone can do that. Not everyone is a cookie-cut model TSA volunteer. We are organised, its the rubbish coming from HQ that is problematic - it's also some-what irritating that the inference is it's us, and not HQ for being half-arsed about so many things it decides to stick it's massive management consultant-controlled wooden spoon in.

  9. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Sure.

    But we don't all operate in ideal circumstances. I'd say most people do find census exasperating, because it's such an archaic guddle. Looking at the 2019 census website - it has forms on it that are dated for the 2017 census. It has conflicting information, it has too much information. As a leader, it seems to be telling me how to fill in the online census, yet I didn't get any log in details. I ended up printing off a PDF of a screenshot of the web page that whoever did get a log in will have to fill out online. (But it's my fault for not being halfway organised...)

    The forms our GSL sent out to leaders are official TSA forms which ask about ethnicity and disability. We're supposed to send these out to parents (if we don't have OSM or - inexplicably - any records at all, or eyes and ears). They fill them out and we're supposed to do what with them? I see Scouts every week, I've even taken the time to get to know them, so I already know what their ethnicity is, and if they have any disabilities they want me to know about, I will know that too. So we have these pointless forms that only really serve to further muddy the waters.

    I have OSM, I keep my part of it up to date, but not everyone can do that. Not everyone is a cookie-cut model TSA volunteer. We are organised, its the rubbish coming from HQ that is problematic - it's also some-what irritating that the inference is it's us, and not HQ for being half-arsed about so many things it decides to stick it's massive management consultant-controlled wooden spoon in.
    You don't send out the forms if you already know their data! You have already collected it. so boom. sorted.

    The rest...

    how many boys and girls are 10,11,12,13,14
    how many are of each ethnicity (or just s- no data)
    how many are of each disability.

    How many men and women are involved and their ethnicity (i said "s -No data" for this when i did it as i had not collected their ethnicity)

    how does that take you more than 10 mins?

    and if you have OSM, why is your GSL or secretary not doing it?

    but if this takes any section leader more than 10 minutes, they have a serious issue with their records and census is the least of their worries.

  10. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    Exactly, people moan about census, but it's not difficult unless you make it difficult for yourself.
    Sure, sure.

    It ended up being easy, but that had precisely nothing to do with the prolixity of advice on the scout website.

    Oh I'm sorry. I forgot, it's my fault for making it difficult for myself. I should've got a job at HQ and taken charge. Or something.


  11. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Sure, sure.

    It ended up being easy, but that had precisely nothing to do with the prolixity of advice on the scout website.

    Oh I'm sorry. I forgot, it's my fault for making it difficult for myself. I should've got a job at HQ and taken charge. Or something.

    i wonder if this was made harder for you by your gsl not sharing the passwords, if he wants you to o the data entry but only on paper.

    you type it in, it validates the numbers... it is pretty slick. no bells and whistles but it does exactly what it should do.

  12. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    You don't send out the forms if you already know their data! You have already collected it. so boom. sorted.

    The rest...

    how many boys and girls are 10,11,12,13,14
    how many are of each ethnicity (or just s- no data)
    how many are of each disability.

    How many men and women are involved and their ethnicity (i said "s -No data" for this when i did it as i had not collected their ethnicity)

    how does that take you more than 10 mins?

    and if you have OSM, why is your GSL or secretary not doing it?

    but if this takes any section leader more than 10 minutes, they have a serious issue with their records and census is the least of their worries.
    Thanks for the unnecessary explanation.

    It's not the doing of census I'm talking about, it's the figuring out how they want it done - because the fiddle with it almost every year. It's not even just that, it's other volunteers who are short of time, or busy with family, so don't have the time to fully explain what is required (and get it right) or more crucially, if anything has changed.

    We don't have a secretary that wants to do OSM and our GSL has a busy life outside of Scouts. It's a hobby, people pick and choose.

    Have to say, hinting that we have a serious issue with our records and census being the least of our worries, is a great thing to read. Other than figuring out requirements for the census, let me tell you what else I'm doing. SL, Chairing meetings. Managing hall hires. Managing the minibus. Managing the building. Quartermastering. Leading going online with accounts. Arranging a weekend away at Easter. Managing recruitment. And I've probably left stuff out...

    I'm also currently leading on OSM.

    And no, I'm not 'moaning', I chose to do all that (well I say that, if I don't, it wouldn't get done). But it's not a little galling hearing from another leader (who you'd hope would understand the constraints we have as a voluntary organisation), that something which is outwith our control - whether local people choose to volunteer or not, and if they do, whether they actually do all of the job they volunteered for - which also contributes to challenges around things like census, is somehow my fault - instead of TSA's for not being just a wee bit clearer about what they require us to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    i wonder if this was made harder for you by your gsl not sharing the passwords, if he wants you to o the data entry but only on paper.

    you type it in, it validates the numbers... it is pretty slick. no bells and whistles but it does exactly what it should do.
    Exactly this I think.

    He didn't know, or didn't think he should.

    And to be fair, neither did/do I.

    Which takes us back to TSA...




    (Sorry, I get het up when folk suggest we're, (okay I'm), disorganized. I'm always trying my best, but sometimes it's incredibly frustrating, when you're sitting across from someone who's volunteered (and we thank them for it), but they decide they don't like computers so won't do emails or OSM etc and it's basically 90% of what they volunteered to do. It's quite frustrating - and I just took it out on you.)
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 01-02-2019 at 10:54 AM.

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  14. #161
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    I understand your GSL may be busy and scouting isn't always his number 1 priority (not that it should be anyone's, but that's another subject altogether) but to be fair to Gilwell on this, I don't think they can be accused of not being clear about what is required or how to login.

    There was an email on 16th Jan from Tim Kidd with the subject "[Action required] 2019 Scouts Annual Census". The first line was "It is now time to undertake the 2019 census". The email contained, in one place, the login details and instructions on how to complete it and what to do if you had any issues.

    If you had agreed with your GSL that you were going to complete the census all he had to do was forward that email on to you. Yes he's busy, yes he has commitments outside of scouting, but forwarding an email takes literally seconds.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post

    If you had agreed with your GSL that you were going to complete the census all he had to do was forward that email on to you. Yes he's busy, yes he has commitments outside of scouting, but forwarding an email takes literally seconds.
    and the new system has a page per section so it is even easier to allow section leaders to complete it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    and the new system has a page per section so it is even easier to allow section leaders to complete it.
    Exactly, as a GSL I completed our return in under an hour. Quick look at the census aggregator on OSM for the figures and type them straight into the census site. The hardest thing for me to get my head around was the fact the OSM table was laid out as such...

    . M F
    Age 8 . .
    Age 9 . .
    Age 10 . .

    ...and the census table as such...

    . Age 8 Age 9 Age 10
    M . . .
    F . . .

    ...but that probably says more about me!
    James

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  18. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    I understand your GSL may be busy and scouting isn't always his number 1 priority (not that it should be anyone's, but that's another subject altogether) but to be fair to Gilwell on this, I don't think they can be accused of not being clear about what is required or how to login.

    There was an email on 16th Jan from Tim Kidd with the subject "[Action required] 2019 Scouts Annual Census". The first line was "It is now time to undertake the 2019 census". The email contained, in one place, the login details and instructions on how to complete it and what to do if you had any issues.

    If you had agreed with your GSL that you were going to complete the census all he had to do was forward that email on to you. Yes he's busy, yes he has commitments outside of scouting, but forwarding an email takes literally seconds.
    As I've already said, in a perfect world...

    I didn't get that email, I assume our GSL did, but he either didn't know he could forward it on or thought/decided it was his responsibility to log in and input the data.

    All that happened was, I got an email from the GSL saying he'd be down at Scouts later that day and could I have the census information ready. I'll admit, it crept up on me, but I knew roughly what was needed, and I know OSM (for Scouts anyway) is bang up to date. What I didn't know anything about was if there was any new info needed (reading stuff on here about postcodes, I think that turned out to be for the hall though, not members) or crucially (because this can be key) what format they wanted it in.

    I maintain, it wasn't clear. Looking at what comes out of Google searches for info on census 2019, it's conflicting, circular and misleading. It tells you to log in, but with what - for example. It's rammed with info for parents (why bother, they already gave all the info way back when). As I've already said, some of the forms have dates from 2017 on them - misleading, introduces doubt...

    Just fed up with people saying, oh it's simple, it should've been easy - as if to say I'm dim for not being able to just skip off and do it... And with respect, people being busy outside of scouts is precisely the point here. TSA should be doing everything they can to make these processes simple and quick. That might have been true about the nitty gritty - the actual recording of the census on the website, but it certainly isn't true about the instructions and guidance.

    They need to wind their necks in and stop being so verbose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    As I've already said, in a perfect world...

    I didn't get that email, I assume our GSL did, but he either didn't know he could forward it on or thought/decided it was his responsibility to log in and input the data.

    All that happened was, I got an email from the GSL saying he'd be down at Scouts later that day and could I have the census information ready. I'll admit, it crept up on me, but I knew roughly what was needed, and I know OSM (for Scouts anyway) is bang up to date. What I didn't know anything about was if there was any new info needed (reading stuff on here about postcodes, I think that turned out to be for the hall though, not members) or crucially (because this can be key) what format they wanted it in.

    I maintain, it wasn't clear. Looking at what comes out of Google searches for info on census 2019, it's conflicting, circular and misleading. It tells you to log in, but with what - for example. It's rammed with info for parents (why bother, they already gave all the info way back when). As I've already said, some of the forms have dates from 2017 on them - misleading, introduces doubt...

    Just fed up with people saying, oh it's simple, it should've been easy - as if to say I'm dim for not being able to just skip off and do it... And with respect, people being busy outside of scouts is precisely the point here. TSA should be doing everything they can to make these processes simple and quick. That might have been true about the nitty gritty - the actual recording of the census on the website, but it certainly isn't true about the instructions and guidance.

    They need to wind their necks in and stop being so verbose.
    your issue is with your gsl who made your job needlessly hard. not with TSA who have made it all quite simple.

    I am the first to complain when TSA screw up IT.

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