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Thread: 2019 Census

  1. #31
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    Slightly strange that we can't login to complete until 21st January even though we now have the passwords! We have done all the section moves for this terms and won't review again until Easter so would be nice to get it done and dusted!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsheehan View Post
    Slightly strange that we can't login to complete until 21st January even though we now have the passwords! We have done all the section moves for this terms and won't review again until Easter so would be nice to get it done and dusted!
    What if someone leaves or joins before that?

    I support what they're doing. I'm fed up with people forcing me to do it before the specified day. Everyone should do it on that day, then it's accurate. Personally I'd block access until 31st or move the census day earlier.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    What if someone leaves or joins before that?

    I support what they're doing. I'm fed up with people forcing me to do it before the specified day. Everyone should do it on that day, then it's accurate. Personally I'd block access until 31st or move the census day earlier.
    absolutely!

    it is a nonsense that data can be entered in january

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I'm fed up with people forcing me to do it before the specified day.
    The census is a census of members as at 31 January. It is impossible to complete the return before that date. I would suggest Districts should not be asking for data within 14 days of the census date.

    Any request for census data before 31 January should be ignored.

    Thinking about this, why do Districts and Counties need to 'approve' the Group census anyway? It is a Group's record of their membership. I can understand the data may be of interest to Districts and Counties, but how is District in a position to dispute the numbers the Group compiles?


    Paul

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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    Thinking about this, why do Districts and Counties need to 'approve' the Group census anyway? It is a Group's record of their membership. I can understand the data may be of interest to Districts and Counties, but how is District in a position to dispute the numbers the Group compiles?
    I should think that districts would (should) mainly be cross referencing adults and Explorers against their records to check for any double counting that may be going on (adults with multiple roles, Explorers being "regular" unit members or "just" YLs etc).

    Agree with the comments regarding completing before the 31st - you may well have no more inter-section movements but you can't foresee someone leaving (I won't say joining as you could easily put them off until February). Our district have never pushed us to complete before the 31st however there's one or two groups who always do and every year they get congratulated...
    James

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    What if someone leaves or joins before that?

    I support what they're doing. I'm fed up with people forcing me to do it before the specified day. Everyone should do it on that day, then it's accurate. Personally I'd block access until 31st or move the census day earlier.
    But why does it matter a few days either side?

    It is just a rough snapshot across the whole movement made largely for statistical purposes. A few Cubs this way or that makes little difference to anyone.

    I will do mine at some point in the next two weeks when I have a clear evening with nothing else to do. If we have the odd Beaver join or leave before the Golden Day - who cares - I will be the only one that knows about it anyway.

  11. #37
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    Well a Beaver here or there is probobly 40+ either way if its a couple that becomes 80 and so on so I think its only fair we try to be as accurate as possible.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 16-01-2019 at 09:42 PM. Reason: typos

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    It would have been better if they allowed us at least read only access from the beginning of January, even if they disabled the 'submit' option until 1 February.

    I've been asking for census details for weeks to ensure that i am asking parents the correct questions.

    If when I finally get to see the census site on 21 January anything is not as I expect I will not be in a position to get any additional data.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    But why does it matter a few days either side?

    ... If we have the odd Beaver join or leave before the Golden Day - who cares - I will be the only one that knows about it anyway.

    It matters because it is a census of membership as at 31st January, not at some arbitary date of your choosing someone around 31st January.

    As for a Beaver joining; remember it is a census of Members - so only Beavers that have been invested will be included.


    Paul

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    Read only access would have been very useful, even for those who have done it previously, to double check what is required.

    Regarding completing a few days +/- 31st Jan and the notion of "I'm the only one that knows" - I find it odd if you are the sole person in the group aware of the state of the current membership.

    Capitation in our district is 45.50 (HQ 27.50, county 11.50, district 6.50) per young person. "A few either way" could mean potentially a couple of hundred pounds difference. I for one would not be able to justify that to my Exec.
    James

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  18. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    What if someone leaves or joins before that?

    I support what they're doing. I'm fed up with people forcing me to do it before the specified day. Everyone should do it on that day, then it's accurate. Personally I'd block access until 31st or move the census day earlier.
    Well in truth because I'm away for a few days either side of that date!

    But we only do moves of membership 3 times a year in line with the school terms so 99% sure of our numbers. And if there was an odd example where someone leave this week or next then they'd be replaced soon enough that we wouldn't notice the cost of AMS in that time [especially as subs will have been paid by now by current members covering it].

    I appreciate the figures might be skewed across the country by a tiny percentage but its would be a pretty clear indication none the less. Theres nothing to stop the data being old even if it cant be entered early!
    --
    Dan Sheehan
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    North London District Scouts

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulArthurs View Post
    ....

    Thinking about this, why do Districts and Counties need to 'approve' the Group census anyway? It is a Group's record of their membership. I can understand the data may be of interest to Districts and Counties, but how is District in a position to dispute the numbers the Group compiles?


    Paul
    Simply that I don't know a district which isn't aware of groups which seen to have a deal more members than on the census. In this district we increased numbers by 10% the year our appsec went round and did a mid year census manually in September and then asked groups to compare. Whether deliberate or accidental (cubs going up being counted by neither colony or troop), the count that year was felt to be much more accurate.

    The district provides an independent check.

  20. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Simply that I don't know a district which isn't aware of groups which seen to have a deal more members than on the census. In this district we increased numbers by 10% the year our appsec went round and did a mid year census manually in September and then asked groups to compare. Whether deliberate or accidental (cubs going up being counted by neither colony or troop), the count that year was felt to be much more accurate.

    The district provides an independent check.
    Very different story in our District. We get so much grief is we don't meet growth targets that the fear is always of submitting under last year rather than over!
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    Dan Sheehan
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    9th Muswell Hill Scout Group

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    North London District Scouts

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsheehan View Post
    Well in truth because I'm away for a few days either side of that date!
    It would make sense for it to be open for a week or two beyond 31st Jan for people to get figures in, with a deadline of half way through Feb.

    If you are away for longer than that you'd need to get someone else to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    R
    Regarding completing a few days +/- 31st Jan and the notion of "I'm the only one that knows" - I find it odd if you are the sole person in the group aware of the state of the current membership.
    I have 9 sections meeting on 6 days of the week. It is the section Leaders that choose when to invest their members. Section Leaders will update OSM to record the investiture at some point but they have real lives so it can take a few days. So it is perfectly possible that we will have members invested during the few days either side of the census date and I will not even know about them. So, it is not true that "I'm the only one that knows", in fact on any given day "nobody in the group knows" with absolute certainty who the current members are. The same is true for members leaving - it takes a few days before the information percolates through to me.

    My point is that there is an inherent error in these numbers regardless of which arbitrary day you choose to record them on and it makes no effective difference to the overall numbers whether I choose to complete the form on the 29th, 30th or 31th of January.

    Others might be in a position to have an perfectly accurate view of the numbers in their group but I do not. It is close, I expend a good deal of effort in trying to be close - but it never going to be 100% - and it does not really matter that much, because tomorrow the numbers will be different anyway.

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