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Thread: 2019 Census

  1. #76
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    The problem with using averages is that it requires far more ongoing admin, particularly where OSM is not used. On that basis I would oppose that, I do enough admin as GSL as it is.

  2. #77
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    Some countries have an annual membership badge (which could also be tied to an annual theme - MillionHands or something), these badges can be strictly issued according to membership fees paid. Parents might then start asking why Johnny did not get the badge when they have paid for membership.

    There is an additional cost and admin burden of course.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Some countries have an annual membership badge (which could also be tied to an annual theme - MillionHands or something), these badges can be strictly issued according to membership fees paid. Parents might then start asking why Johnny did not get the badge when they have paid for membership.

    There is an additional cost and admin burden of course.
    If ever we get to a national membership database of all members, there could be the issue (direct to home addresses) of an annual discount card for a variety of outlets. No doubt the commercial companies would pay for their information to be posted to our members with the discount card. The "correction" of the membership count and the income from the advertisers would probably more than pay for the production and postal costs etc.

    Paul

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Some countries have an annual membership badge (which could also be tied to an annual theme - MillionHands or something), these badges can be strictly issued according to membership fees paid. Parents might then start asking why Johnny did not get the badge when they have paid for membership.

    There is an additional cost and admin burden of course.
    Less of an admin burden than doing year badges based on joining.

  5. #80
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    Hmmm...

    Here's how I think I'd do it if I was Bear Grylls, or something.

    I'd swap it round and put the onus on parents. If they want their kids in, then they need to register to pay online. There they'd arrange a monthly card payment or direct debit. The system would be managed centrally by TSA, (shoosh, I know...) But would have optionality at group, district and region level (or however each part needs to set up their cut of the cash). The capitation fee would be set by HQ, but the region, district and group would set their rates as they see fit on the system.

    Parents could have a four week (say) period where their sprog could try Scouts out, but after that, to continue, they'd need to register online. Once done, the GSL would get an email (or some other link - in to OSM perhaps?) Then everyone knows the kid is on board.

    No need for a census, membership fees are paid in a more granular way. I wouldn't put a minimum membership time limit on it, or maybe make it a school term minimum - so 3 or 4 months?

    The point is, all a GSL would have to do is go online and say how much money they need for the group to run, same at district level and so on. No one except HQ would need to think about capitation fees at all. Parents would only see the total they'd need to pay, either as a lump annual sum (maybe with a discount - non-refundable) or as a monthly DD.

    Is what I'd do.

  6. #81
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    I completely agree, and had Compass not been such an almighty balls-up we would quite probably be there by now.

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    This is what was done in Canada, starting a couple of year ago. The mainstream national organisation was having issues with groups not submitting registration fees for all the kids, or delaying submittal. So now the parents have to register their kids online, it is the only method, and pay up front with a credit card for the entire annual (capitation) fee (135 quid). Spot checks are done on groups to ensure that there are no kids at meetings that haven't paid (can try three meetings before having to pay). Groups can tack on their own fee to the above, and it is collected at the same time, and deposited in the group's bank account.


    Allan.

    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I'd swap it round and put the onus on parents. If they want their kids in, then they need to register to pay online. There they'd arrange a monthly card payment or direct debit. The system would be managed centrally by TSA, (shoosh, I know...) But would have optionality at group, district and region level (or however each part needs to set up their cut of the cash). The capitation fee would be set by HQ, but the region, district and group would set their rates as they see fit on the system.

    Parents could have a four week (say) period where their sprog could try Scouts out, but after that, to continue, they'd need to register online. Once done, the GSL would get an email (or some other link - in to OSM perhaps?) Then everyone knows the kid is on board.

    No need for a census, membership fees are paid in a more granular way. I wouldn't put a minimum membership time limit on it, or maybe make it a school term minimum - so 3 or 4 months?.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hmmm...

    Here's how I think I'd do it if I was Bear Grylls, or something.

    I'd swap it round and put the onus on parents. If they want their kids in, then they need to register to pay online. There they'd arrange a monthly card payment or direct debit. The system would be managed centrally by TSA, (shoosh, I know...) But would have optionality at group, district and region level (or however each part needs to set up their cut of the cash). The capitation fee would be set by HQ, but the region, district and group would set their rates as they see fit on the system.

    Parents could have a four week (say) period where their sprog could try Scouts out, but after that, to continue, they'd need to register online. Once done, the GSL would get an email (or some other link - in to OSM perhaps?) Then everyone knows the kid is on board.

    No need for a census, membership fees are paid in a more granular way. I wouldn't put a minimum membership time limit on it, or maybe make it a school term minimum - so 3 or 4 months?

    The point is, all a GSL would have to do is go online and say how much money they need for the group to run, same at district level and so on. No one except HQ would need to think about capitation fees at all. Parents would only see the total they'd need to pay, either as a lump annual sum (maybe with a discount - non-refundable) or as a monthly DD.

    Is what I'd do.
    Sorry - disagree completely. Fundamentally kids join A Scout group. A local, independent charity which then signs up to the rules of the association. Always remember that scouts existed before groups and groups existed before HQ.

    At least with the present system there is a small way to hold districts and counties to account for their spending. Under what you propose it would be a free for all.

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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    The problem with using averages is that it requires far more ongoing admin, particularly where OSM is not used. On that basis I would oppose that, I do enough admin as GSL as it is.
    I think it could take less time. You just take total income from subs and divide it by the annual subscription fee. No need to track actual members.

  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Hmmm...

    Here's how I think I'd do it if I was Bear Grylls, or something.

    I'd swap it round and put the onus on parents. If they want their kids in, then they need to register to pay online. There they'd arrange a monthly card payment or direct debit. The system would be managed centrally by TSA, (shoosh, I know...) But would have optionality at group, district and region level (or however each part needs to set up their cut of the cash). The capitation fee would be set by HQ, but the region, district and group would set their rates as they see fit on the system.

    Parents could have a four week (say) period where their sprog could try Scouts out, but after that, to continue, they'd need to register online. Once done, the GSL would get an email (or some other link - in to OSM perhaps?) Then everyone knows the kid is on board.

    No need for a census, membership fees are paid in a more granular way. I wouldn't put a minimum membership time limit on it, or maybe make it a school term minimum - so 3 or 4 months?

    The point is, all a GSL would have to do is go online and say how much money they need for the group to run, same at district level and so on. No one except HQ would need to think about capitation fees at all. Parents would only see the total they'd need to pay, either as a lump annual sum (maybe with a discount - non-refundable) or as a monthly DD.

    Is what I'd do.


    This is what was done in France. Some groups expeienced huge difficulties financially, as HQ decided how much was to be allocated per group. Prior to the central subscriptions arangement, each Group did its own thing, had its own subs and did its own fundraising. After going centralised, some groups found that parents took the view that they had paid subs to HQ and therefore there was now no need to do any fundraising. I remember reading of one Scoutmaster who also lost volunteers as a result of the central membership system.

    How on earth would thay allocate funds to groups? on a simple per capita basis? Yet Group A may have virtually no overheads whilst Group b may have huge overheads? Or, The team at Group C are not flavour of the month so they get less than the DC's best mate's Group... That would never happen though, would it...?
    Ewan Scott

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  12. #86
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    As others have said you allow the Group, District and County to configure their cut.

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  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    As others have said you allow the Group, District and County to configure their cut.

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    Can't see how that would work. Somewhere along the line there would have to be a means test. Holy Schmoley... Given our success at fundraising, can you imagine how much we would have been allocated? It would be a disincentive to develop and grow.
    Ewan Scott

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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Can't see how that would work. Somewhere along the line there would have to be a means test. Holy Schmoley... Given our success at fundraising, can you imagine how much we would have been allocated? It would be a disincentive to develop and grow.
    They would log in and edit their Groups Compass record to specify their cut. Not hard at all. Much easier than writing a Census cheque, let alone completing it.

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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    Sorry - disagree completely. Fundamentally kids join A Scout group. A local, independent charity which then signs up to the rules of the association. Always remember that scouts existed before groups and groups existed before HQ.

    At least with the present system there is a small way to hold districts and counties to account for their spending. Under what you propose it would be a free for all.
    All my system would do is take money. It wouldn't be a central membership system. And each level would have control over everything except the actual HQ capitation fee. This isn't really any different from using OSM to take in subs, it's just giving each tier control over it's cash requirements. Each level would also input bank details, so their share goes directly to them. (Probably should have said that...)

    Ewan makes a good point about transparency, so I'd show what portion goes where on the system.

    TSA already sets POR (often without involving any groups), so I'm not sure why this seems like such a terrible imposition.

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  17. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    They would log in and edit their Groups Compass record to specify their cut. Not hard at all. Much easier than writing a Census cheque, let alone completing it.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
    Never going to happen. If groups don't know how many kids they have, see Dave123 post on this, the chances of them keeping everything up to date are Zero.

    Just took a look at local Group websites and social media - they can't even update their own publicity... jeez louise, the chances of them keeping accurate anything are about close to zero.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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