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Thread: 2019 Census

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianw View Post
    Eh? Form 6s? Number of nights away? Average attendance?

    [scurries off to find his login details and has a look at the online census]

    Nope. Still don't know what you're talking about. You have some extra bonus gold plating local questions for local groups? Or am I missing something?

    Ian
    I had assumed this information was required from everyone. I guess it must be a County specific thing. The form certainly has the County name at the top of it.

  2. #122
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I had assumed this information was required from everyone. I guess it must be a County specific thing. The form certainly has the County name at the top of it.

    yeah, that shizzle ain't right.

    i'd be sorely tempted to ask them to contact the section leader directly and collect the data themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    yeah, that shizzle ain't right.

    i'd be sorely tempted to ask them to contact the section leader directly and collect the data themselves.
    what are they doing with average attendance figures?

    what are they doing with nights away figures?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post

    what are they doing with average attendance figures?

    what are they doing with nights away figures?
    No idea. I shall have to ask.

    I would guess that it is an honest attempt to work out which groups might need some support.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    No idea. I shall have to ask.

    I would guess that it is an honest attempt to work out which groups might need some support.
    if they don't know that already, there is a problem!

    I'd also suggest that the only groups replying honestly and fully are the ones who don;t need much support. The needy ones will just lie or not answer.

    it's simple: if they do not know the needy groups, forcing the whole county to do this crap to cover for their own inefficiency and lack of decent support network is not the answer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I had assumed this information was required from everyone. I guess it must be a County specific thing. The form certainly has the County name at the top of it.
    you do log into https://census.scouts.org.uk/ to do this, right?

    That is a pretty decent effort at a simple data collection tool. It validates as you go and sticking osm data in is v quick,

    i just downloaded the data from my new group it looks like this for the troop (a YL is not recorded right and needs fixing)

    Screenshot 2019-01-23 at 17.51.00 copy.png

    taking that and putting it into the scout site takes a minute or two.

    i'd be cross if i were you!

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  6. #125
    Map Geek marcush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    No, it wouldn't. I have enough admin to do as it is.

    A proper membership system would solve this, of course.
    Proper membership wouldn't, as there will always be members who aren't active on it. and a simple quarterly census of numbers is no extra admin. An email saying x number of YP, x number of YLs and x number of leaders. You should know it anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    No idea. I shall have to ask.

    I would guess that it is an honest attempt to work out which groups might need some support.
    From a development perspective, it is an awful way to do it and someone that has no clue on development has though it up.

    Rule 66. A map and compass offers no protection against getting horribly lost.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    Proper membership wouldn't, as there will always be members who aren't active on it.
    A properly implemented membership system would mean that anybody not entered on it is not a member - simple. Compass would have gone that way had it not been a load of...well, you know.

    and a simple quarterly census of numbers is no extra admin. An email saying x number of YP, x number of YLs and x number of leaders. You should know it anyway.
    Last time I checked sending an e-mail was adminstration, and if it isn't otherwise required it is extra administration. Not much, of course, but nonzero.

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  9. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcush View Post
    Proper membership wouldn't, as there will always be members who aren't active on it. and a simple quarterly census of numbers is no extra admin. An email saying x number of YP, x number of YLs and x number of leaders. You should know it anyway.
    I just don't have a brain that works that way. I stand at the front of my Cub Pack every week. I know how many Cubs I have in front of me (I will have just done a register and written down the result). But I could not confidently tell you exactly how many Cubs I have in the Pack - I know it is about 20 but my brain just does not remember such information. That is why I have records (i.e. OSM), so that I do not have to remember.

    The idea that I would, at any given moment, have a definitively accurate number for all 9 sections in the group is just laughable. Take this evening, it is nearly 17:30 - so one of the Beaver Colonies has been going for 15 mins. They could have invested 3 new Beavers in that time. So there might now be 3 new members. The only people that know are those that are present. I will not find out until the Beaver leader updates OSM.

    So if the expectation is that I "should know it anyway" then I for one am a failure.

  10. #128
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    They could have invested 3 new Beavers in that time. So there might now be 3 new members. The only people that know are those that are present. I will not find out until the Beaver leader updates OSM.
    More fool you and them if you have allowed 3 new Beavers to be invested before 31st as that would be around 120+ cost to your Group as if invested they now have to be included on your census return as they would be members.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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  12. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    More fool you and them if you have allowed 3 new Beavers to be invested before 31st as that would be around 120+ cost to your Group as if invested they now have to be included on your census return as they would be members.
    I just don't see it this way. I believe that we should pay our fair share. As long as the numbers that we are declaring are broadly inline with our average numbers for the year I am content that we are following the spirit of honesty. I would not tell my Beavers leaders to change their plans because of the Census.

  13. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I just don't see it this way. I believe that we should pay our fair share. As long as the numbers that we are declaring are broadly inline with our average numbers for the year I am content that we are following the spirit of honesty. I would not tell my Beavers leaders to change their plans because of the Census.
    TSA has fixed expenses, if groups hold back investing just to avoid the census deadline then that lowers their income and over the entire membership capitation has to rise to cover. So far that's fine. But what sticks in the craw is groups which hold off investing effectively increasing costs for those who invest at the right time regardless of census. But that's just me I guess (and hippysurfer !).

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  15. #131
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    We don't hold off investing people, we only move up and admit new members at the start of half terms so its impossible for new starters in Jan to be members by 31st given the membership badge requirements of attending 4 meetings.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  16. #132
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    Ummm...

    We sometimes don't invest new people until they've been in for months. However, they'll be on OSM as soon as they move up or start coming along.

    Not sure investitures should be a way point in this.

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  18. #133
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    More fool you and them if you have allowed 3 new Beavers to be invested before 31st as that would be around 120+ cost to your Group as if invested they now have to be included on your census return as they would be members.
    Sorry, Shifty, I think that you are misguided in this. It doesn't actually matter when you invest, because you will equally pay AMS for some people who will leave. It is swings and roundabouts.

    If a Group has a stable membership, then it doesn't matter when you invest, you just pay capitation for the numbers you have.

    If a Group is growing, then those that join in the coming year get a free ride till the next census. (presuming AMS is collected in January - It happens that I collected throughout the year, so there were fewer "free riders".)

    The issues start if a Group goes into decline (presuming AMS is collected in January), and each year they pay for more people at the start of the year than they have at the end of the year.

    The solution is, I think, relatively simple. The anticipated AMS is levied on every member throughout the year and is set aside by the Treasurer. This way everyone pays. Even those who join for less than a full year contribute to the AMS. We charge termly for Navigators - as we did for Scouts, and include the Insurance (AMS) in the termly fees. Junior Navigators currently pay weekly, and their weekly fees include a contribution to Insurance (AMS).
    Ewan Scott

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  19. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Sorry, Shifty, I think that you are misguided in this. It doesn't actually matter when you invest, because you will equally pay AMS for some people who will leave. It is swings and roundabouts.

    If a Group has a stable membership, then it doesn't matter when you invest, you just pay capitation for the numbers you have.

    If a Group is growing, then those that join in the coming year get a free ride till the next census. (presuming AMS is collected in January - It happens that I collected throughout the year, so there were fewer "free riders".)

    The issues start if a Group goes into decline (presuming AMS is collected in January), and each year they pay for more people at the start of the year than they have at the end of the year.

    The solution is, I think, relatively simple. The anticipated AMS is levied on every member throughout the year and is set aside by the Treasurer. This way everyone pays. Even those who join for less than a full year contribute to the AMS. We charge termly for Navigators - as we did for Scouts, and include the Insurance (AMS) in the termly fees. Junior Navigators currently pay weekly, and their weekly fees include a contribution to Insurance (AMS).
    I think most of our groups charge subs by the term and include a third of the annual capitation in each payment. As every group should budget for 12 months including AMS then it shouldn't be a nasty surprise once per year.

  20. #135
    Map Geek marcush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I just don't have a brain that works that way. I stand at the front of my Cub Pack every week. I know how many Cubs I have in front of me (I will have just done a register and written down the result). But I could not confidently tell you exactly how many Cubs I have in the Pack - I know it is about 20 but my brain just does not remember such information. That is why I have records (i.e. OSM), so that I do not have to remember.

    The idea that I would, at any given moment, have a definitively accurate number for all 9 sections in the group is just laughable. Take this evening, it is nearly 17:30 - so one of the Beaver Colonies has been going for 15 mins. They could have invested 3 new Beavers in that time. So there might now be 3 new members. The only people that know are those that are present. I will not find out until the Beaver leader updates OSM.

    So if the expectation is that I "should know it anyway" then I for one am a failure.
    So the 10-15 minutes it would take for a GSL to go through OSM on the day, taking your 9 section example. But you would roughly have an idea before then how many are on your books and would know through speaking to leaders of any investitures coming up?

    Rule 66. A map and compass offers no protection against getting horribly lost.

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