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Thread: Police called in after Scout group run from mosque is linked to Islamic extremist

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    I remember when I was a Scout getting told off because I didn't bow my head during prayers - 'being religious' was the default position growing up, if you're saying a prayer at the end of meetings, then you're perpetuating and promoting religiosity - which I think is problematic around young people.
    This.

    I respect individual's right to pray. I also respect that some in positions of leadership might like to lead a prayer with their group. I do not think that anyone has a right to force anyone else to pray.

    So. If a Scout Group choose to say a prayer at the end of the evening, that is fine. Those that wish to join in should be allowed to do so. Those that do not wish to join in should stand in silence and allow those who wish to say a prayer to do so undisturbed. They may wish to use that moment of silence for some form of personal reflection.

    It really upsets me to see rows of kids in school assemblies, regardless of their belief or lack thereof, being told that they must repeat the words of the lords prayer. It should be down to the choice and conscience of each child whether they remain silent, or whether they say the prayer. In the same way it is individual choice whether one bows ones head, remain stationery, or, as some people choose to when praying, look up to the skies.

    If I go to a wedding or funeral in a church, I don't join in with prayers if they are read collectively. If the vicar/priest is saying a prayer at the front i don't join in with the collective "amen" at the end. But i remain silent and respectful of those who choose to do so.

    We should never tell anyone what they should or shouldn't believe. We should teach a sense of morality, including a respect for other people's beliefs. Part of this comes from understanding the basics of those beliefs

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    This.

    I respect individual's right to pray. I also respect that some in positions of leadership might like to lead a prayer with their group. I do not think that anyone has a right to force anyone else to pray.

    So. If a Scout Group choose to say a prayer at the end of the evening, that is fine. Those that wish to join in should be allowed to do so. Those that do not wish to join in should stand in silence and allow those who wish to say a prayer to do so undisturbed. They may wish to use that moment of silence for some form of personal reflection.

    It really upsets me to see rows of kids in school assemblies, regardless of their belief or lack thereof, being told that they must repeat the words of the lords prayer. It should be down to the choice and conscience of each child whether they remain silent, or whether they say the prayer. In the same way it is individual choice whether one bows ones head, remain stationery, or, as some people choose to when praying, look up to the skies.

    If I go to a wedding or funeral in a church, I don't join in with prayers if they are read collectively. If the vicar/priest is saying a prayer at the front i don't join in with the collective "amen" at the end. But i remain silent and respectful of those who choose to do so.

    We should never tell anyone what they should or shouldn't believe. We should teach a sense of morality, including a respect for other people's beliefs. Part of this comes from understanding the basics of those beliefs
    Despite my comments higher up the thread I completely agree with this. In fact I think that sitting or standing in silence while others pray is actually showing more respect than repeating words that are sacred to some but not to you.

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    I can't read the entire article on the Telegraph's website, but do we have a - ...Scouts own commitment to ‘British Values'...

    Is that an explicit thing or is the writer paraphrasing?

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    according to ofsted and the government, british values are "democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs."

    every school now has a british values day, i think and it confuses the heck out of me.

    To highlight these as peculiarly British seems to suggest that you don't find these elsewhere and that really niggles.

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    I thought British values were farce, understatement, stiff upper lip, queuing, quiet outrage, shilly-shallying, that sort of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    according to ofsted and the government, british values are "democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs."

    every school now has a british values day, i think and it confuses the heck out of me.

    To highlight these as peculiarly British seems to suggest that you don't find these elsewhere and that really niggles.

    Those are all very good values to have. I wouldn't say that they are uniquely British, but they are definitely values that every British person should strive to uphold. They are of course values that everyone around the world should strive to uphold, but neither the UK Government nor Ofsted has any power to impose that

    Surely though Schools should be teaching these values anyway, without needing a special "day" to do so. a quick google search found this School's report on their British Values day.... which seems to have confused British Values with "archaic british ways of life" https://www.intakeprimary.org.uk/wel...ish-values-day

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Those are all very good values to have. I wouldn't say that they are uniquely British, but they are definitely values that every British person should strive to uphold. They are of course values that everyone around the world should strive to uphold, but neither the UK Government nor Ofsted has any power to impose that

    Surely though Schools should be teaching these values anyway, without needing a special "day" to do so. a quick google search found this School's report on their British Values day.... which seems to have confused British Values with "archaic british ways of life" https://www.intakeprimary.org.uk/wel...ish-values-day
    pity the poor teachers who are trying to fill a day with this stuff

    it must be tough

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    according to ofsted and the government, british values are "democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs."

    every school now has a british values day, i think and it confuses the heck out of me.

    To highlight these as peculiarly British seems to suggest that you don't find these elsewhere and that really niggles.
    Hmmm...

    I'd have a hard time selling those as 'British' values at the moment...

    I don't think we're doing that in Scotland though so...

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    I can only see the start of the newspaper article, but it looks like typical journalist padding.

    The Scout Group is linked to a man who has extremist views (he is not necessarily a member, and it does not say he has expressed those views during a Scout meeting).

    TSA does allow sections segregated by gender, it does allow members to wear the hijab (for religious or cultural reasons without age restrictions), it does allow members as young as 6 (maybe not 5), it does not say that you cannot be a Muslim first (and a Scout second, British third....).

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post

    edit: i misread this post completely. reply makes no sense. sorry

    TSA does allow sections segregated by gender
    it 100% does allow this and it does not need ot be for a reason. Any group may offer a girls and boys section. I know one that does this and has done since 2007 as the leaders (especially the gsl) did not want to take girls into the 'boys' troop' so they started a 'girls' troop'
    Last edited by big chris; 21-01-2019 at 03:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    it 100% does allow this and it does not need ot be for a reason.
    Nobody (except the original article) suggested otherwise?
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    I can only see the start of the newspaper article, but it looks like typical journalist padding.

    The Scout Group is linked to a man who has extremist views (he is not necessarily a member, and it does not say he has expressed those views during a Scout meeting).

    TSA does allow sections segregated by gender, it does allow members to wear the hijab (for religious or cultural reasons without age restrictions), it does allow members as young as 6 (maybe not 5), it does not say that you cannot be a Muslim first (and a Scout second, British third....).
    Since it's the Telegraph, I'd be taking it with a pinch of salt. When you think about it, if they really burrowed into practices - in boring humdrum non-church affiliated groups - how many would be found to be doing something (anything) which was against the rules.

    I was talking to a parent last night about all the new rules that have crept in over the years around taking kids away for the weekend. It's almost as if, by having it all written down, all those do's and don'ts, that as well as it instructing on 'best practice', it's also a stick to beat us with if things don't quite go according to plan...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhhjh View Post
    Nobody (except the original article) suggested otherwise?
    Totally misread your post. Apologies

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    it 100% does allow this and it does not need ot be for a reason. Any group may offer a girls and boys section. I know one that does this and has done since 2007 as the leaders (especially the gsl) did not want to take girls into the 'boys' troop' so they started a 'girls' troop'
    I hadn't thought about it quite like this. I'd assumed it was just a hangover from the olden days, hang on, let's see what everyone's favourite rulebook actually says...

    Rule 3.6 Mixed Membership
    a-e. This rule is left intentionally blank
    f. All Scout Groups, Explorer Scout Units and Scout Networks are required to be open to male and
    female membership except in special situations. Single sex Sections may exist within a Scout
    Group provided that membership is available for both sexes across all Sections within that Group.


    So yes, as long as there is opportunity for both genders within a group (except for "specials"), we're all good! So you could have a group that has a boy's colony, pack, and troop, and a girl's colony, pack, and troop. I do know of a group that has one cub pack that's boy's only, I thought it was just because of the leader not wanting girls, and something about when we changed over that sections could carry on as single gender while the old leader was there as part of the change-over to mixed membership, that they were still there 12 years later I just thought was an anomaly, but clearly, it's actually fine. Bet there aren't that many like that, that divide by gender, and I bet very few new sections start up as a boys or girls section.
    Ian Wilkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Since it's the Telegraph, I'd be taking it with a pinch of salt. When you think about it, if they really burrowed into practices - in boring humdrum non-church affiliated groups - how many would be found to be doing something (anything) which was against the rules.

    I was talking to a parent last night about all the new rules that have crept in over the years around taking kids away for the weekend. It's almost as if, by having it all written down, all those do's and don'ts, that as well as it instructing on 'best practice', it's also a stick to beat us with if things don't quite go according to plan...

    We're on a decades-long trend of removing said rules at this point.

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