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Thread: Police called in after Scout group run from mosque is linked to Islamic extremist

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    it 100% does allow this and it does not need ot be for a reason. Any group may offer a girls and boys section. I know one that does this and has done since 2007 as the leaders (especially the gsl) did not want to take girls into the 'boys' troop' so they started a 'girls' troop'
    Whilst girls and boys sections are allowed it does need to be for a reason.

    POR lists the "special situations" when it can be done and the GSL's views on mixed Scouting is not on the list.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    We're on a decades-long trend of removing said rules at this point.
    Removing them?

    Ummm...

  3. #33
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Whilst girls and boys sections are allowed it does need to be for a reason.

    POR lists the "special situations" when it can be done and the GSL's views on mixed Scouting is not on the list.
    my response was to a misread post but pretty sure that you are wrong here and POR allows it as long as there is boys and girls sections and both have equal access to scouting within the group.

    just looked:

    3.6

    All Scout Groups, Explorer Scout Units and Scout Networks are required to be open to male andfemale membership except in special situations.

    Single sex Sections may exist within a ScoutGroup provided that membership is available for both sexes across all Sections within that Group.

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  5. #34
    Very Old Member BigBadBaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveF View Post
    Whilst girls and boys sections are allowed it does need to be for a reason.

    POR lists the "special situations" when it can be done and the GSL's views on mixed Scouting is not on the list.
    I don't believe that is correct and Chris has beat me to it with the reference to POR!

    I think you may be confusing the two sentences in 3.6. The list of special situations you refer to are where one can have single sex provision, without consideration of the other sex. It is clearly within the rules to have single sex sections within the group, so long as that section is offered to both sexes so, for example, as Ian illustrated, a boys Cub pack and a girls Cub pack and, as far as I can see, no reason has to be given as to why this arrangement exists, so it could be just the GSL's whim.
    Last edited by BigBadBaloo; 21-01-2019 at 04:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    my response was to a misread post but pretty sure that you are wrong here and POR allows it as long as there is boys and girls sections and both have equal access to scouting within the group.

    just looked:

    3.6

    All Scout Groups, Explorer Scout Units and Scout Networks are required to be open to male andfemale membership except in special situations.

    Single sex Sections may exist within a ScoutGroup provided that membership is available for both sexes across all Sections within that Group.
    That is correct. There is no rule that say that all sections must be mixed gender providing that there is a progression through the group for both genders. There is a rule that say all groups (except the special circumstances) must take both genders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Since it's the Telegraph, I'd be taking it with a pinch of salt. When you think about it, if they really burrowed into practices - in boring humdrum non-church affiliated groups - how many would be found to be doing something (anything) which was against the rules.
    In this particular case, the Telegraph has not presented any evidence that anyone was doing anything wrong, they are just trying to make it sound like someone was.

  8. #37
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    An example of a special circumstances which would allow a single gender Group with no provision at all for the other gender is a Group sponsored by a single gender entry school and only open to school members. We used to have a Group in our District based at a private boys school in Leeds and they met immedietly after school so only had members from the school. It so happens that the School has since merged with a private girls school and so now the Scout Group is open to both genders.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Previous Scouting Roles
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  9. #38
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    I could never understand why we are allowed to have religious groups or single sex packs, they hardly fulfill the equality and diversity agenda and at best pay lip service to it. A catholic or muslim group in theory is open to all, but in practical terms is it? I'd love to see some diversity figures from those groups.
    Last edited by bernwood; 21-01-2019 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    I could never understand why we are allowed to have religious groups or single sex packs, they hardly fulfill the equality and diversity agenda and at best pay lip service to it. A catholic or muslim group in theory is open to all, but in practical terms is it? I'd love to see some diversity figures from those groups.
    Mainly because of history. The equality and diversity agenda is a relatively recent thing compared to the spiritual development thing. You can have a diversity of groups, rather than diversity within a group.

    If you would rather that such groups didn't exist, then you are potentially denying the YP at those groups access to Scouting. Their parents are free not to send them there.

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  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post
    my response was to a misread post but pretty sure that you are wrong here and POR allows it as long as there is boys and girls sections and both have equal access to scouting within the group.

    just looked:

    3.6

    All Scout Groups, Explorer Scout Units and Scout Networks are required to be open to male andfemale membership except in special situations.

    Single sex Sections may exist within a ScoutGroup provided that membership is available for both sexes across all Sections within that Group.
    Thanks for pointing it out. I can see I read it incorrectly - although I think the rule could be made a bit clearer.

    I do feel that it is a pity that a GSL can do this however. I would say that it is within the rule but perhaps not within the spirit of the rule(?)

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  14. #41
    Senior Member bernwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Mainly because of history. The equality and diversity agenda is a relatively recent thing compared to the spiritual development thing. You can have a diversity of groups, rather than diversity within a group.

    If you would rather that such groups didn't exist, then you are potentially denying the YP at those groups access to Scouting. Their parents are free not to send them there.
    History doesn't mean it's right- Didn't God create all men equal - unless you're not religious !

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    I'm slightly uncomfortable that leaders here are wanting to deny choice to parents. Surely, if groups backed by religious organisations are an issue, parents will avoid them, without other leaders needing to make a case to close down those groups?

    I should say that I'm in a group sponsored by the church of which I am a member. I'm not entirely sure that the church sponsors us in order to boost the numbers we can claim for our youth work. To what end? I think it's got more to do with believing that Scouting values are a good thing for society, and wanting to support them therefore. Would it be going too far to suggest gently that respect for others extends to not demeaning their motives?

    Of course, churches' tendency to want to be involved in the communities that they serve does tend to lead to people coming through their doors. But then, you could replace "churches" with "Scout Groups" in that sentence. There have been people who wanted to get rid of those too.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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  17. #43
    Sea Scout Leader richardnhunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    I can only see the start of the newspaper article, but it looks like typical journalist padding.

    The Scout Group is linked to a man who has extremist views (he is not necessarily a member, and it does not say he has expressed those views during a Scout meeting).

    TSA does allow sections segregated by gender, it does allow members to wear the hijab (for religious or cultural reasons without age restrictions), it does allow members as young as 6 (maybe not 5), it does not say that you cannot be a Muslim first (and a Scout second, British third....).
    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    History doesn't mean it's right- Didn't God create all men equal - unless you're not religious !
    So you would remove the equal right of parents to have a Scout group that fits with their belief structure?

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    Or just to choose where to send their kids. Most Groups with backing from religious organisations are open sponsored, i.e. open to all. For a Group that fitted with a belief structure, you'd probably need closed sponsored.

    In my experience, "open sponsored" means that leaders from the wider community are just as welcome as are youth members, are just as individually influential in setting the tone of the Group, and are generally in the majority in the leadership team. In some cases, they're more active in ensuring that the spiritual development side of Scouting is included in the programme from time to time than are the leaders who are members of the sponsoring body.
    Last edited by DKRSL; 21-01-2019 at 10:43 PM.
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  19. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardnhunt View Post
    So you would remove the equal right of parents to have a Scout group that fits with their belief structure?
    I don't think it should be the job of Scouts to bolster or provide for this. The church used to have TYC etc, why not stick with that instead of hitching their wagon to Scouts. It would be more honest - no, honest is the wrong word, it would be more transparent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    I'm slightly uncomfortable that leaders here are wanting to deny choice to parents. Surely, if groups backed by religious organisations are an issue, parents will avoid them, without other leaders needing to make a case to close down those groups?
    I think this is a somewhat flawed argument. Parents may not have a choice in the matter. A kid's pals all go to Scouts, the parents may have reservations about it (possibly) being overly religious, but go with it anyway because their sprog wants to be with their pals. It might even be the only group in the area, which is so well thought of, that it's the done thing to send your kids there.

    Saying that, I don't believe they should be closed down, but I'd expect leaders to respect the rights of the non-religious and not make it religious by default.

    I have four new scouts to invest, and for the first time they'll get the option of a non-religious promise. I don't wish to speculate on why that didn't happen before.

    As an aside, we have a scout site near to us called Canty Bay, its really nice, a lovely place to go - I'd recommend it. However, in the booking blurb, it says groups must endeavour to have in their program some sort of religious content. The last time Cubs were there, the owners (a scouting trust in Edinburgh) came down and made them sit through a video about god and the power of prayer. The cub leaders said they felt a wee bit awkward about it, I don't know what the kids thought of it. Personally, as nice as it is, I'd have a problem with them doing it, I'd have to say to the kids, if they didn't want to watch it, then then could leave.

    But it does go against the booking policy as it's presented on their website.

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