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Thread: Police called in after Scout group run from mosque is linked to Islamic extremist

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Saying that, I don't believe they should be closed down, but I'd expect leaders to respect the rights of the non-religious and not make it religious by default.
    As I mentioned, in my experience most of the leaders in sponsored groups are not themselves from the sponsoring body. I'm not quite sure whether your neat, black and white categories quite work in an organisation where spiritual reflection is supposed to be one aspect of the programme. That rather more implies a world in which people come in all shapes and sizes, and all shades of "spiritually minded" or not
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    Or just to choose where to send their kids. Most Groups with backing from religious organisations are open sponsored, i.e. open to all. For a Group that fitted with a belief structure, you'd probably need closed sponsored.

    In my experience, "open sponsored" means that leaders from the wider community are just as welcome as are youth members, are just as individually influential in setting the tone of the Group, and are generally in the majority in the leadership team. In some cases, they're more active in ensuring that the spiritual development side of Scouting is included in the programme from time to time than are the leaders who are members of the sponsoring body.
    Whilst I agree that most sponsored Groups are open to all, I wonder what happens when most of the kids fail to attend the church parades that are 'mandatory' (much pressure from Leaders and the Church - it is only one hour every other month etc), or when a yp wants to use the non standard promise.

    Things become expected of them when the join such groups in many instances.

    A great deal depends on the sponsorship agreement as to whether it is worth it or whether just paying rent and being totally open is a better option.

    The Groups round here that are sponsored seem to get nothing from the sponsorship other than the free or cheap use of a room. Many of the agreements are not 'current' under POR but have not being discharged from them either as I understand it even if it is over 5 years old and / or there have been changes to GSL / Sponsoring Authority, whilst it is not within the rules it has not been discharged.

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    My group have a sponsoring authority. When I joined the group it was something that helped me join - for s change I did not need to hide the fact I was a Catholic.

    About half the leaders are from the parish or were once living in the parish and are still practicing Catholics.

    We have a prayer at the end of the meeting. As it is Scout led it doesn’t change from one year to the next. All done in about 60 seconds. Those that do not take part are asked to stand quietly and respectfully. And mostly they do.

    We have monthly Church Parade to which all are invited but no body has to attend. We get around a quarter of the group along. (It use to be 90% when my brother was a cub at the group.) The YP get involved in most of the responsibilities, eg readings, bidding prayers, collection, offertory and flag bearers. The priest engages them in the homily.

    If we are camping on a Sunday then we will go to Mass if the programme allows it. E.g. summer camp - we go, Scarefest - we do not. This does need to be handled sensitivity. We will chat and work out a solution to those that are not Christians/practicing. As Catholics we are required to go to mass each week. It does look impressive when we walk in with loads of uniformed YP, often smelling of camp fire. Our parish is huge with a three or five hundred attending each of the four Sunday /vigil masses. When we go into a church that has an average attendance of less than a hundred for their only mass, it is so noticeable.

    We have our own HQ that is separate from the Church. But it is small. So we sometimes use the Church hall, e.g. fundraising nights. Other than that it is a Church hall, there is no religious overtones to those activities.

    The rest of the time you would not know that we are a Catholic group. So that is 99% if the time we are doing what any other group is doing. We probably do less reflective/spiritual/religious stuff as our programme looks heavy with it due to Church Parades.

    I am happy that we do not force Catholics beliefs on others in our Group.


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  5. #49
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    Theology is the study of nothing - Thomas Paine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bernwood View Post
    History doesn't mean it's right- Didn't God create all men equal - unless you're not religious !
    Pragmatism vs Dogma

    If Scouting started again it probably wouldn't have church sponsored groups, but if Scouting started again it probably wouldn't exist at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    As I mentioned, in my experience most of the leaders in sponsored groups are not themselves from the sponsoring body. I'm not quite sure whether your neat, black and white categories quite work in an organisation where spiritual reflection is supposed to be one aspect of the programme. That rather more implies a world in which people come in all shapes and sizes, and all shades of "spiritually minded" or not
    But it is neat, or simple (or black or white). The spiritual aspect of the program isn't about being religious, it's just about religion and spiritualism. It talks about the why's and the how's - it shouldn't go near the doing. That's between the individual and their personal beliefs.

    In short, we talk about why people might want to pray, we don't actually do it.

    So my positions is better, because it doesn't foist anything on anyone and makes no demands on impressionable young minds - except perhaps to think critically about things and not just, well, follow the flock...


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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    Removing them?

    Ummm...
    Duration limits, limits on international events, need for alternative accommodation for Beavers/Cubs, Beavers being able to go camping at all, all of the stuff that used to be in the Pack Holiday stuff, etc., etc.

    In contrast, when was the last time they added a restriction? Honestly struggling to think of one that's even remotely recent. Maybe YLs not being able tos hare with the section that they're YLing with, back when the YLsystem started?

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  10. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoomei View Post
    Pragmatism vs Dogma

    If Scouting started again it probably wouldn't have church sponsored groups, but if Scouting started again it probably wouldn't exist at all.
    Navigator Groups and Adventurers ( which I am in now) are new, secular in there outlook and are thriving and growing every year. If Scouting did start again, it would hopefully shed all the trappings, and history that is tying it down today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    Duration limits, limits on international events, need for alternative accommodation for Beavers/Cubs, Beavers being able to go camping at all, all of the stuff that used to be in the Pack Holiday stuff, etc., etc.

    In contrast, when was the last time they added a restriction? Honestly struggling to think of one that's even remotely recent. Maybe YLs not being able tos hare with the section that they're YLing with, back when the YLsystem started?
    I'm talking about the entire Night's Away system. It's rubbish. It used to be, that camping was a core skill - you got your wood badge, you could take kids camping. Now though? All that stuff you said above is fine - if you can get a NAP.

    I cant speak for cubs and beavers, only for scouts and explorers.

  12. #55
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    If you have the skills to run NA events then you will get given a NAP if you apply for one, if you don't have the skills then I for one am glad that a lack of a NAP prevents you attempting to run them until you do (assuming you want to gain them and have the ability to do so).

    I would say the greatest issue is the way some Districts run NAP assessments with far too few NAAs and gold plating the rules such as insisting on everyone running assessment camps including those renewing permits who have clearly been actively using the NAP to run camps at the level of their permit.

    Our District has several NAAs and generally one of them is avaialble to assess a camp whenever it is arranged for.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  13. #56
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    The NAP system should be simple.

    Please can i have a permit?

    Yup, run a camp and i'll pop along or find somebody else to do it (with the emphasis on me needing to sort that out) . Let's meet before and after to discuss a few things and we'll be all good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    If you have the skills to run NA events then you will get given a NAP if you apply for one, if you don't have the skills then I for one am glad that a lack of a NAP prevents you attempting to run them until you do (assuming you want to gain them and have the ability to do so).

    I would say the greatest issue is the way some Districts run NAP assessments with far too few NAAs and gold plating the rules such as insisting on everyone running assessment camps including those renewing permits who have clearly been actively using the NAP to run camps at the level of their permit.

    Our District has several NAAs and generally one of them is avaialble to assess a camp whenever it is arranged for.
    While I don't disagree - my point is, getting the skills should be part of getting a wood badge. It needs to be a core skill.

    edit* The notion that you can be a fully fledged leader of some standing but not be able to take kids camping is, ummm, strange. \edit*

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I cannot help but wonder...

    If someone were to set up, say an organisation for young men, or women, where they were taught to be self sufficient, to operate as both team members and as independent players, where they perhaps took part in training for survival, took part in search and rescue and hunt and capture exercises, whee they may even be taught to use small bore rifles.

    If someone were to do that, and hold a different view of society and its mores - would they be taking part in youth development, or something else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I cannot help but wonder...

    If someone were to set up, say an organisation for young men, or women, where they were taught to be self sufficient, to operate as both team members and as independent players, where they perhaps took part in training for survival, took part in search and rescue and hunt and capture exercises, whee they may even be taught to use small bore rifles.

    If someone were to do that, and hold a different view of society and its mores - would they be taking part in youth development, or something else?
    This is a trick question isn't it?


  18. #60
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    This is a trick question isn't it?


    "O wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us!"
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





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