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Thread: Police called in after Scout group run from mosque is linked to Islamic extremist

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    "O wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us!"

    If I understood that correctly, words to live by.

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  3. #62
    Keith at 2M Keith at 2M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post

    As an aside, we have a scout site near to us called Canty Bay, its really nice, a lovely place to go - I'd recommend it. However, in the booking blurb, it says groups must endeavour to have in their program some sort of religious content. The last time Cubs were there, the owners (a scouting trust in Edinburgh) came down and made them sit through a video about god and the power of prayer. The cub leaders said they felt a wee bit awkward about it, I don't know what the kids thought of it. Personally, as nice as it is, I'd have a problem with them doing it, I'd have to say to the kids, if they didn't want to watch it, then then could leave.

    But it does go against the booking policy as it's presented on their website.
    To be honest, having once visited Canty Bay (http://www.cantybay.com/) purely by the co-incidence of staying at the local guest house, I think I'd willingly convert to whatever religion was necessary for me to stay in such an idyllic site. In the nearly 50 years I've been in Scouting I'm not sure I've ever seen such a beautiful scouting location.
    The Roman Empire did not become great by holding meetings. It did so by killing everyone that opposed their point of view.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at 2M View Post
    To be honest, having once visited Canty Bay (http://www.cantybay.com/) purely by the co-incidence of staying at the local guest house, I think I'd willingly convert to whatever religion was necessary for me to stay in such an idyllic site. In the nearly 50 years I've been in Scouting I'm not sure I've ever seen such a beautiful scouting location.
    You know...

    You're right. It is as close to a perfect spot as can be. Some compromise in terms of principles is sometimes necessary.

    It's usually fully booked, we're going back in August.


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  6. #64
    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    Like the Lewisham mosque, Mr Al-Rawni’s group segregates groups according to gender - contrary to the Scouts’ own policy.
    Shame they don't actually know anything about TSA's co-education policy i.e. seperate gender Sections are allowed so long as there is provision for both genders.
    Last edited by shiftypete; 28-01-2019 at 10:01 PM.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    One has to question the effectiveness of the pre-checks that are carried out before appointing leaders.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    One has to question the effectiveness of the pre-checks that are carried out before appointing leaders.

    There is a desperation to show diversity, and who is going to decide that the Leaders, of a different faith, are unsuitable? How would anyone, not part of that faith, know what was being taught? There was a day when "the old guard" would only reluctantly accept those not of their own faith.

    But what about the DBS check? If nothing showed up, what can you do? It may well be that there are files on certain individuals, thay ,may even be under watch, but for the Police to say anything could well show their hand and put surveillance at risk.

    However, on a wider view. There are some pretty awful views held by some leaders anyway. A scan of FB can raise more than a few eyebrows from time to time. And there are some who do not post on social media but who have rather extreme views that only those around them may be aware of.

    On balance I think that there is a pretty good job done by the appointments process, however, I also suspect the desparation for diversity will alsways throw up these situations.
    Ewan Scott

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  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    There is a desperation to show diversity, and who is going to decide that the Leaders, of a different faith, are unsuitable? How would anyone, not part of that faith, know what was being taught? There was a day when "the old guard" would only reluctantly accept those not of their own faith.

    But what about the DBS check? If nothing showed up, what can you do? It may well be that there are files on certain individuals, thay ,may even be under watch, but for the Police to say anything could well show their hand and put surveillance at risk.

    However, on a wider view. There are some pretty awful views held by some leaders anyway. A scan of FB can raise more than a few eyebrows from time to time. And there are some who do not post on social media but who have rather extreme views that only those around them may be aware of.

    On balance I think that there is a pretty good job done by the appointments process, however, I also suspect the desparation for diversity will alsways throw up these situations.
    In relation to your final paragraph, isnít it interesting though that some on here beleive that the appointments process should be taken from the District and handed to Groups.

    Iím sure that if that happened there would be a lot more of this going on in many Groups. And my comment has nothing to do with religion or race but unsuitable people ending up in roles of influence because there is a gap that needs filling. But it will also allow people like this to infiltrate Groups more easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    In relation to your final paragraph, isnít it interesting though that some on here beleive that the appointments process should be taken from the District and handed to Groups.

    Iím sure that if that happened there would be a lot more of this going on in many Groups. And my comment has nothing to do with religion or race but unsuitable people ending up in roles of influence because there is a gap that needs filling. But it will also allow people like this to infiltrate Groups more easily.
    Disagree.

    I don't think it'll change anything really.

    Groups will know their local areas (and the people in them) better than districts. But, groups would be able to shoehorn people in who may not pass muster with people who have a more objective view - by which I mean district people.

    Otherwise, unsuitable people are already being shoehorned into positions - indeed, that is the root cause of most of these issues. I'd go on to point out (although not argue against it being so) that, the rules TSA set out are part of the problem - the standards they want often are not compatible with a voluntary organisation. I would go as far to say, the structure as dictated by POR is probably more conducive to these things happening because all the positions involved in the recruitment procedure often can't themselves be filled - so - people slip in that may not be suitable.

    It's a bit of a vicious circle.

    Is what I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    Whilst I agree that most sponsored Groups are open to all, I wonder what happens when most of the kids fail to attend the church parades that are 'mandatory' (much pressure from Leaders and the Church - it is only one hour every other month etc), or when a yp wants to use the non standard promise.

    Things become expected of them when the join such groups in many instances.
    Surely you should be able to answer your own question? I'm puzzled that you know for certain that parades are mandatory in such Groups, but you don't know what they do when YPs "disobey"

    We have four parades a year, we encourage but don't require attendance (I've no idea how we could if we wanted to - it's up to the same parents who made the choice to send their kids to us in the first place). As someone else said, typical attendance is around the 25% mark, although the revival of Remembrance Sunday in recent years means that that one can easily get over half.

    And when a YP wants to use the non-core promise, we do that. What else would we do? Actually, when they join, we provide them with a sheet with all the variations from the core; in spite of the way that some talk on here, there isn't "a" non-core promise, but a whole set. We did the same, in a church-based group, when we had some Muslim boys join a bit back - but with the promise that they chose.

    I'd be surprised if any of the sponsored groups round here do much differently, but I don't have your inside knowledge, I'm afraid.
    SL, 11th Hitchin

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  14. #71
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    It's not just sponsored groups though, focusing on them in this is misleading.

    It's also groups that aren't sponsored who have leaders that knowing or unknowingly promote religiosity, or those who are just old fashioned for whom it's their default position - even if they don't much care one way or the other.

    Our group isn't sponsored, we've never had anything to do with the church. But I know from experience (in my group), not everyone offers the variations of promises, for example. Last year was the first year the kids were told they didn't have to go into the church after the armistice day parade, (well, the flag party did... Which was a moot point, because we only got numbers for the flag party anyway - and even then, there wasn't enough to carry the scout flag and the union flag the last SL wanted the kids to carry - which is another thread for another forum probably. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKRSL View Post
    Surely you should be able to answer your own question? I'm puzzled that you know for certain that parades are mandatory in such Groups, but you don't know what they do when YPs "disobey"

    We have four parades a year, we encourage but don't require attendance (I've no idea how we could if we wanted to - it's up to the same parents who made the choice to send their kids to us in the first place). As someone else said, typical attendance is around the 25% mark, although the revival of Remembrance Sunday in recent years means that that one can easily get over half.

    And when a YP wants to use the non-core promise, we do that. What else would we do? Actually, when they join, we provide them with a sheet with all the variations from the core; in spite of the way that some talk on here, there isn't "a" non-core promise, but a whole set. We did the same, in a church-based group, when we had some Muslim boys join a bit back - but with the promise that they chose.

    I'd be surprised if any of the sponsored groups round here do much differently, but I don't have your inside knowledge, I'm afraid.

    I cannot answer my own question as I am not in those groups. But I have heard Leaders in conversation stating that all their members are expected to all end Church Parade. I have never asked what happens when they don’t. I have heard of sponsoring authorities expecting a full turnout on parade Sundays but again don’t know what happens when they don’t get it.

    I have heard Groups who have bribed kids that if they don’t attend they cannot go on the next camp etc but don’t know whether the Group have carried that through. There are points to be scored for attending like when you earn badges etc.

    I have heard both Groups and Districts insisting on 100% turn out for St George’s day parade to a church but not sure what happens if they don’t. I know that GSLs have had a hard time sometimes at meetings after I have seen that. My Group do not do St George’s Day Parade.

    There should be no threat or sanction for not attending. A church who sponsors a group should do so because they wish to offer something to the youth of the area not simply to boost church numbers.

    From my own point of view and it was 40 years ago I was under pressure to attend Church Parades in another village at a Church that was not mine. My parents sometimes let me attend but others they told the leaders that I would be attending my own Church as I did every week. They and the Vicar were all happy with that or at least appeared to be.
    Last edited by daveb123; 30-01-2019 at 04:07 PM.

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    I have heard of groups organising a sleepover on a Saturday night immediately before a church parade happening on the Sunday morning. In some cases the option of attending sleepover only, and leaving before the church parade was not advertised, in some cases those who were enquired were advised that attendance must be at both or neither.

    I have heard of groups claiming that attendance at church parade was part of promise, or part of membership.

    I have heard of groups offering attendance badges to those who attended the parade, but not those who participated in alternative ways (e.g. those who attended other places of worship, those who took part in silences in other locations).

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    I remember discussions on this before. The “conclusion” was that making attendance compulsory, or only allowing attendance at an activity available to those who attend parades or church services was a breach the equal opportunities policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    I remember discussions on this before. The ďconclusionĒ was that making attendance compulsory, or only allowing attendance at an activity available to those who attend parades or church services was a breach the equal opportunities policy.
    We're going off on a bit of a tangent here but I think regardless of any policies by effectively bribing the young people or "rewarding" the attendees in this way you are taking away from the message of the service (be it remembrance or anything else) itself.

    If little Johnny is only going to Remembrance/St George's/Sunday church/whatever so he gets to go to XYZ event he's going for the wrong reasons. If a group is so keen for their YP to attend such things, they really ought to be on their own merits.
    James

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