Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17

Thread: Interesting Insurance Question

  1. #1
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,542
    Thanks
    397
    Thanked 2,863 Times in 1,547 Posts

    Interesting Insurance Question

    Someone wanting to hire the community centre that we use has just asked an interesting question, which maybe someone can shed some light on.

    The Centre has its own Public Liability Insurance - so any harm/ injury caused by its operations/ premises, are insured. All good.

    Navigators have our own PLL insurance, to cover us against any claims due to our activity. All Good.

    A private hirer of the hall, for a one off event, has been asked by a participant if they, the hirer, needs to have PLL Insurance to cover their party members during the event.

    I've never given this a second thought, but many halls will hire out to third parties for one off events and never give this a considertion. So what if Jimmy Toerag is attending this event and, say, causes harm to a third party... What if equipment used by the hirer (own equipment) causes harm... ?

    Should hall managers insist that all hirer of the hall provide insurance cover to cover their own equipment and actions?

    If a hall manager/ owner allows use of the hall and they do not check for insurance, and there is an incident, could they be considered negligent for not ensuring that the hire party was insured?

    Perhaps something to be discused at Exec meetings.

    (I am not the hall manager/ owner, nor am I a Trustee on the board of the comunity centre).
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    4,066
    Thanks
    1,436
    Thanked 1,121 Times in 816 Posts
    As we've understood it, so long as your public liability insurance covers you for hire (ie. all hall use), that's how ours has always been set up - and we assume is why its so expensive. We don't keep treasure in the hall or anything...

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    East Devon
    Posts
    1,173
    Thanks
    94
    Thanked 412 Times in 214 Posts
    The hall owner's PLL insurance covers them for their legal liability. So the question is, does the hall owner have a legal liability to the group hiring the hall or to its members if the injury or damage is caused by actions of the group. I would say not. The hall owner has a legal liability only for the condition of the hall.

    (The usual caveat on advice applies - believe what you read on the internet at your own peril!)
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    150
    Thanks
    419
    Thanked 58 Times in 30 Posts
    Many household insurance policies carry PLL also - perhaps this would suffice but I suppose a check with the relevant insurer would do no harm.

  5. #5
    Escouts Founder Richard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Midlothian, Scotland
    Posts
    6,630
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 328 Times in 135 Posts
    In the case of a Scout premises, Unity covers the Liability on behalf of TSA. It doesnt cover liability if the injury / damaged was caused by a third party.

    I always consider insurance when letting out our hall

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    456
    Thanks
    90
    Thanked 91 Times in 61 Posts
    As others have said, the insurance covers whoever has taken out the policy, so the hall's insurance would cover claims against the hall such as guest trips over a floorboard.

    On the other hand if an injury or something is caused by something the organisers of the event have done such as disco equipment falling on someone, it would be the event organisers that are liable and if they have PL insurance that would cover it, so in that sense it makes no difference to the hall whether they have PL or not

    However, if it's the hall themselves that need to claim because for example a guest at the event damaged some hall property, they could sue the hirer regardless of whether or not they have PL but it's often easier, and unofficially courts more sympathetic to the claimant, if they do. So often halls require hirers to have PL

    There's a degree of reasonableness. Halls are unlikely to need to claim against their hirers for expensive things such as personal injury, so If the hall is prepared to hire to one off events for cash, they are unlikely to expect a birthday party to have PL, because realistically hirers can be expected to just cough up smaller things for minor breakages. Or some halls plump for the middle ground and only hire to people they know they can trust.

  7. #7
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    12,326
    Thanks
    3,475
    Thanked 1,165 Times in 775 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pepper View Post
    There's a degree of reasonableness. Halls are unlikely to need to claim against their hirers for expensive things such as personal injury, so If the hall is prepared to hire to one off events for cash, they are unlikely to expect a birthday party to have PL, because realistically hirers can be expected to just cough up smaller things for minor breakages. Or some halls plump for the middle ground and only hire to people they know they can trust.
    Or take a returnable damage deposit from which any costs for repairing damage caused by the hirer (if any) can be deducted before returning the remainder (if any)

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
    2003 - 2013 ABSL
    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,935
    Thanks
    2,633
    Thanked 1,972 Times in 1,246 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by boballan View Post
    Many household insurance policies carry PLL also - perhaps this would suffice but I suppose a check with the relevant insurer would do no harm.
    Indeed. Those clauses are very often rather wide, surprisingly so. You'd think they would just cover liability arising from home ownership and keeping, but in reality they cover lots of things. The Direct Line policies always used to cover cycling, for instance, and that wasn't just an assumption, I asked them. May still do. So if you rode your pushbike into a Rolls Royce by accident they'd cough up.

    I suspect if there were many claims they'd get narrower

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,542
    Thanks
    397
    Thanked 2,863 Times in 1,547 Posts
    My concern here was that a participant at this private event has asked the perty hiring the hall if they have PLL Insurance. That set me thinking, and I suspect there will be no cover for hire parties, I also suspect that for many participants home insurance will be something that other people have. (There was a fire here recently in a privately owned home and it happened that the owner was not insured!!!).

    I asked the question of Escouts because I know that I will get reasoned answers from people whose experience and thinking is worth listening to.

    Thanks for the responses.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    456
    Thanks
    90
    Thanked 91 Times in 61 Posts
    Not sure that comparison works,

    Any homeowner who doesn't have home insurance is taking an absolutely massive risk and you would be crazy not to do so.
    A party organiser doing a one off friends birthday party who doesn't buy PL insurance is taking a very small risk and not having your own PL for such an event is routine.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Dr_Pepper For This Useful Post:

    Neil Williams (31-01-2019)

  12. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,935
    Thanks
    2,633
    Thanked 1,972 Times in 1,246 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pepper View Post
    Not sure that comparison works,

    Any homeowner who doesn't have home insurance is taking an absolutely massive risk and you would be crazy not to do so.
    A party organiser doing a one off friends birthday party who doesn't buy PL insurance is taking a very small risk and not having your own PL for such an event is routine.
    Yes, agreed. If someone asked me that for a kid's party I would be more than tempted to tell them they were not invited. It sounds rather like someone looking for "where there's blame, there's a claim", and such people can get lost.

    There is certainly no requirement to have it in this kind of context. It's just that if you don't and someone sues and wins you'll be bankrupted.

    That person isn't German, by any chance, are they? The culture is different there, and having a separate, distinct Haftpflichtversicherung is near enough universal over there, it's just something you have and is not expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    My concern here was that a participant at this private event has asked the perty hiring the hall if they have PLL Insurance. That set me thinking, and I suspect there will be no cover for hire parties, I also suspect that for many participants home insurance will be something that other people have.
    I guess they either owned outright or rented? You are required to have it if you have a mortgage (for the mortgage company's benefit) and many mortgage companies will insist on seeing evidence frequently (though I'll admit mine has never asked for it other than at the start), and other than specialist landlord insurance you don't really see buildings-only, the general liability clause tends to stem from the contents component.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,542
    Thanks
    397
    Thanked 2,863 Times in 1,547 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post

    I guess they either owned outright or rented? You are required to have it if you have a mortgage (for the mortgage company's benefit) and many mortgage companies will insist on seeing evidence frequently (though I'll admit mine has never asked for it other than at the start), and other than specialist landlord insurance you don't really see buildings-only, the general liability clause tends to stem from the contents component.
    I guess they cancelled it after they got the mortgage.

    The only time I was ever asked for proof of insurance was when I changed mortages - and even then, it was my life insurance they were interested in not property insurance.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  14. #13
    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    12,134
    Thanks
    1,787
    Thanked 3,264 Times in 1,398 Posts
    A house burned down near me and the owner did not have insurance (recent divorce, husband used to sort that stuff out)
    My dad only got contents insurance this year... until then (it turned out) he had only had buildings cover - the same insurance i guess he took out 42 years ago when he bought the place and had just paid it year after year... same company, same policy, same outrageous premium. i've now fixed that.

    so... don't assume people have cover!

  15. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    9,935
    Thanks
    2,633
    Thanked 1,972 Times in 1,246 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I guess they cancelled it after they got the mortgage.

    The only time I was ever asked for proof of insurance was when I changed mortages - and even then, it was my life insurance they were interested in not property insurance.
    That's quite interesting, as I don't have life insurance (I don't have any dependents so there's no need) and my mortgage company (Nationwide) has never paid a blind bit of attention to this.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Huddersfield
    Posts
    15,542
    Thanks
    397
    Thanked 2,863 Times in 1,547 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    That's quite interesting, as I don't have life insurance (I don't have any dependents so there's no need) and my mortgage company (Nationwide) has never paid a blind bit of attention to this.
    Endowment mortgages were covered by Life Insurance.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



    www.upperdearnevalleynavigators.org.uk

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Bushfella For This Useful Post:

    Neil Williams (01-02-2019)

Similar Threads

  1. Insurance question
    By Goose76 in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 29-01-2014, 09:38 PM
  2. Motor Insurance Question
    By loopyphil in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-08-2013, 08:02 PM
  3. Insurance question / help please
    By PSV6 in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 13-07-2012, 01:41 PM
  4. Insurance Question
    By andypagett in forum Scouting Talk
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 20-01-2011, 09:42 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •