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Thread: Stepping out the hut, where did the permission misnomer come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenOfThe12th View Post
    That would relate to the use of chemical toilets and is one of the few accepted uses as this is covered under the Greenfield permit.
    Indeed, it's a quite common "workaround" to chemi-khazis not being included on Campsite in case your (female; the male ones tend to use the bushes) Beavers need a wee in the night and it's a long walk to the toilet block

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenOfThe12th View Post
    That would relate to the use of chemical toilets and is one of the few accepted uses as this is covered under the Greenfield permit.
    However greenfield also deals with personal enhanced hygiene and potable water sources, which wouldn't be needed on boats or campsites.
    The point is that if we're going to have a special kind of permit for what LE is, why not this? It's at least as common, from what I can tell, and more clearly distinguished from a full Greenfield permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    I'm unclear as to why that would be incompatible with issuing a Greenfield Permit restricted to "lightweight expeditions only", which is what a LE Permit is, not to mention the options going with that of issuing Indoor and Campsite so restricted as well for those with fewer skills.

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    "A Lightweight Expedition Permit" -> "A Greenfield Permit restricted to Lightweight Expedition only".

    Yes, it doubles the words, but it isn't hard, and it would remove all the confusion having a Permit outside the hierarchy causes.
    The way it was explained to me (not that I have either) was on a greenfield camp you could roll up to a filed with no facilities but have a wagon full of heavy gear and set up camp and be quite comfortable. You just don't have 'facilities'. You are likely to be there a week but not essential.

    On a lightweight expedition everything that goes to camp is supposed to be carried on by the participants and whilst there are still no facilities you don't have the luxury of a wagon load of heavy gear and food. It is quite probable that you are only on site one night before moving on again (again not essential).

    So I saw it as basically same type of camping but with different gear that may need different considerations

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesam3 View Post
    The point is that if we're going to have a special kind of permit for what LE is, why not this? It's at least as common, from what I can tell, and more clearly distinguished from a full Greenfield permit.
    I have wondered if we should bin the hierarchy and restrictions combination and replace it with modules of some kind. So your base NAP would be indoor, then you could add things like:
    - Cooking on fires
    - Cooking on stoves
    - Sleeping outside
    - Lightweight expeditions
    - Fresh water supply
    - Providing toilet facilities

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by daveb123 View Post
    The way it was explained to me (not that I have either) was on a greenfield camp you could roll up to a filed with no facilities but have a wagon full of heavy gear and set up camp and be quite comfortable. You just don't have 'facilities'. You are likely to be there a week but not essential.

    On a lightweight expedition everything that goes to camp is supposed to be carried on by the participants and whilst there are still no facilities you don't have the luxury of a wagon load of heavy gear and food. It is quite probable that you are only on site one night before moving on again (again not essential).

    So I saw it as basically same type of camping but with different gear that may need different considerations

    Which would make sense...if Greenfield didn't cover LE. But it does (as do the other two Permits within their remits).

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    I think greenfield and lightweight expedition are the only type of permit (and I hesitate to use that word) that should be outside of the basic leader training.

    If I'm being brutally honest, if a person can't run an indoor camp without training, I'd question their abilities around being a leader at all. Rolling up to a camp site with facilities would require some training - preferably practical (putting tents up and proper use there-of), so maybe an afternoon with a troop with an experienced leader team on camp. But that could even be a module - it's not that hard.

    What Dave said is how I understand it. We did a lot of LE type stuff with Explorers, and it can be difficult to organise. Greenfield, we used to do a lot of, but all that is, is LE without the movement and all the equipment.

    It's interesting that TSA are so keen on the 'Professional Scouter', but are dumbing down on the actual practical scout stuff. They seem to want new leaders to be expert bureaucrats before being competent outdoors-people. Which if you'll excuse the language, is totally ****-for-elbow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I think greenfield and lightweight expedition are the only type of permit (and I hesitate to use that word) that should be outside of the basic leader training.

    If I'm being brutally honest, if a person can't run an indoor camp without training, I'd question their abilities around being a leader at all. Rolling up to a camp site with facilities would require some training - preferably practical (putting tents up and proper use there-of), so maybe an afternoon with a troop with an experienced leader team on camp. But that could even be a module - it's not that hard.

    What Dave said is how I understand it. We did a lot of LE type stuff with Explorers, and it can be difficult to organise. Greenfield, we used to do a lot of, but all that is, is LE without the movement and all the equipment.

    It's interesting that TSA are so keen on the 'Professional Scouter', but are dumbing down on the actual practical scout stuff. They seem to want new leaders to be expert bureaucrats before being competent outdoors-people. Which if you'll excuse the language, is totally ****-for-elbow.
    Ewan said it further up the thread and he is right... running a weekend camp is not hard. Loads of us rolled out of venture scouts and started running camps for the younger sections.

    In those days, we used to be visited by a local person or the campsite warden and if there had been a problem, it would have been fed back to home district pretty rapidly. Now? The NAP system should be a very easy path to running camps and sleepovers.

    Seriously... if you can run a section night safely (fires, wide games etc) then the rest is just remembering to feed them and do a bit of paperwork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big chris View Post

    Seriously... if you can run a section night safely (fires, wide games etc) then the rest is just remembering to feed them and do a bit of paperwork.
    You would think so.

    I have seen tents pitched under trees dripping sap. Tents pitched in hollows. Tents pitched downwind of a fire. Tents pitched with the doors into the wind. Altar fires set above bone dry grass. The abonimation of the fire hearth created from bricks and left in situ post camp, whilst the next group build another ten feet away. (Worse still when they scavange the stone for the hearth from the dry stone wall).

    BUT... I don't recall any of these things being taught in training.

    I don't have any answer as to how you address these issues, much of it is, dare I say it, common sense, and common decency.
    Ewan Scott

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    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    What I notice most is, we all have different ways of doing what is essentially the same thing. That doesn't just apply to camping, it applies to everything we do at scouts - from folding the flag for flag break so it falls properly to laying out a campsite.

    Some of us are very particular about how these things should be done, others not so much so.

    I was going to say, perhaps districts should have a camp team (haha, not like that). Pro-Scouters who don't lead within groups, just organise camps. The problem with that (and other non-troop camps) is that it's at camp where you build good working relationships with the kids. It's just so important and can often massively improve your weekly meeting nights...

    Then on top of that, there's the Scout way and any way that isn't the Scout way.

    As I've already said, you can go camping with minimal expertise - it isn't complicated. But it to do it well, is a skill. And I still think if you want to be a proper Scouter, it's a skill you should really have, or at the very least be interested in learning.

    That said, I also totally get that we need to get adults involved, so there needs to be some compromise around expectation.

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