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Thread: Stepping out the hut, where did the permission misnomer come from?

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Stepping out the hut, where did the permission misnomer come from?

    So, there's yet another thread on 1st FB about having a form or getting permission or informing the DC about whenever a section leaves the hut, or meets in a different place. Was it a rule at some point in the past? Because so many people seem to have labyrinthine processes around this, it must have all come from somewhere no? It can't have just built up over time can it? I mean, I know there used to be stuff about going camping and telling the host DC and all that stuff, but I'm talking about, say, going bowling, or going up the park, and some people have a form, that's bad enough, but a form that has to be countersigned by the GSL, then sent to DC 14 days in advance. I mean, it can't all be 9.1.b's fault can it?
    Ian Wilkins
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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    That's just ridiculous. All we do in my group is send a copy of the programme to the DC and ADC alongside a standing invite to come along - and that's not because we need to, but because it's a nice thing to do.
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    I have never once been asked to do this. And relived we don't have to- with 5 sections, who are rarely in the same place from one week to the next (including 50% of meetings outdoors at our district campsite) I can barely keep up to go to the right place when I am around let alone keep someone else in the loop!

    We've had one visit from a District Beaver Leader arranged in the time i've been involved in my group and they just asked the BSL when a good week to come in was. As it happens the Beaver team then planned a showcase evening for them and they didn't bother to turn up or let them know- so we wouldn't make any special effort or consideration again I don't think.

    Were a big District so I presume our DC has better things to do that make a trip around the corner difficult for us! Equally I know that when I have problem my DC is hugely pro-active and efficient so will get it sorted where required.
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    This appears to be the offending item:

    51727765_10216965767269875_7136721201828724736_n.jpg

    Hard to know where to start with that... but had I been told that as a volunteer I had to seek "Permission" to run activities outside of the hut, i would have left a lot sooner than I did!

    Especially if i'd had to get a form countersigned by both the GSL and DC before taking the kids outdoors.

    Scouts should be outdoors (particularly in the summer) by default.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Hard to know where to start with that... but had I been told that as a volunteer I had to seek "Permission" to run activities outside of the hut, i would have left a lot sooner than I did!

    Especially if i'd had to get a form countersigned by both the GSL and DC before taking the kids outdoors.
    It's bonkers isn't it? Does the DC send back the signed form for good measure? Or does the DC have a filing cabinet of carefully signed and dated forms that they received, signed, and filed?

    But there's loads of similar if not quite so paper trail examples, I was wondering if there was a recollection from anyone or whether it's all just evolved over time from folk memory or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    Scouts should be outdoors (particularly in the summer) by default.
    Pretty much yes.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

    Jambowlree - Worldwide Scout Ten Pin Bowling Competition
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    There are lots of 'official' scouty forms doing the rounds, the existence of which contradicts other 'official' rules doing the rounds. Is there not still a consent form for camping/nights away?

    We're out most nights as soon as it gets light. We just go. We don't even give specific information to parents, they know we do it.

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    Technically I think we are supposed to but our DC has a fairly broad interpretation of the word "normal". In other words in addition to our hut and grounds, he's happy for us to use places that we regularly use such as Solsbury Hill, Primrose Hill Woods and possibly Brown's Folly Nature Reserve (I don't personally use that one as I hate the access road!) as "normal". I know another group locally had the District campsite within their definition of normal. To be honest he'd probably want to know why if we weren't heading out and about regularly as he's also of the view that Scouts (Cubs and Beavers) should be outdoors.
    Does anyone know what's going on?

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    Assistant Beaver Leader Keith's Avatar
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    Our DC has a fairly relaxed and common sense approach to this - he simply asks that we let him know when we're meeting outside of our HQ so that he is aware of it - usually it's as simple as sending him the list of programme themes that we send to parents and letting him know of any changes.
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    Historically, our DC's have had nothing to do with the running of troops. Can't speak for all groups right enough, but we've never informed the DC of anything officially - only perhaps mentioned things in passing if our paths crossed - which was pretty rare.

    I suppose you only know what you know. But if a DC here started to expect this sort of paperwork, there would be a few raised eye brows, but not much more.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    I've heard of this.

    One DC tried it but it was unworkable because no-one complied. He then decided that if we took the kids into town we had to tell him, he actually specified the town... I pointed out that for us Wakefield and Barnsley were equidistant, I presumed this command only applied to Huddersfield, since that was the specified destination. The command was left to gather dust.

    Having said that... If I were the DC today, given the crime rates in the town centres, I suspect that I would want not only to know they were going there, but also see their Risk Assessments...
    Last edited by Bushfella; 12-02-2019 at 09:31 PM.
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    Asst Sea Scout Leader GuruChris's Avatar
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    My personal favourite of this week - we use an online booking/payment tool for camps and activities, and this year are rolling it out across the whole group for summer camp. The GSL (who's also the DC for now) says we still also need paper permission slips (because after parents have entered their credit card details and parted with their cash, along with filling in the booking form and ticking "i give permission for little jonny to go camping" might not actually mean they understand their child is going away for a week... go figure)

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    Quote Originally Posted by campwarden View Post
    This appears to be the offending item:

    51727765_10216965767269875_7136721201828724736_n.jpg

    Hard to know where to start with that... but had I been told that as a volunteer I had to seek "Permission" to run activities outside of the hut, i would have left a lot sooner than I did!

    Especially if i'd had to get a form countersigned by both the GSL and DC before taking the kids outdoors.

    Scouts should be outdoors (particularly in the summer) by default.

    I have so many questions. Starting with the 2019 date, references to "CRB checks", and old logo.

    However, from the blacked-out bit at the top, it looks like it says "[Somewhere] District Scouts Activity Form", which presumably means it's been made by some random district somewhere, so can't be the source of this widespread confusion.

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    I am fairly sure its because that there used to be wording in rule 9.1 (it might have been a seperate rule) which said DC permission was required for all activities away from the usual meeting place or home area or something like that which was actually widened several years ago to include ALL activities not just those outside a set area/usual meeting place.

    Some Districts appear to have just carried on using whatever ridiculous system they used to comply with this regardless of changes in the rules.

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    ESL and DESC ianw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I am fairly sure its because that there used to be wording in rule 9.1 (it might have been a seperate rule) which said DC permission was required for all activities away from the usual meeting place or home area or something like that which was actually widened several years ago to include ALL activities not just those outside a set area/usual meeting place.

    Some Districts appear to have just carried on using whatever ridiculous system they used to comply with this regardless of changes in the rules.
    Just had a play with web archive...

    2006

    Rule 9.1: Activity Rules - Application
    AMENDMENT: amended Jan 2006 with removal of word authorisation and due to change from Activity Authorisation Schemes to Activity Permit Scheme
    These Rules apply to all activities carried out anywhere in the world.

    The District Commissioner is responsible for approving all activities for Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts, Scouts and Explorer Scouts. This will usually be by means of an informal system agreed between the District Commissioner and each Group Scout Leader or District Explorer Scout Commissioner.

    2000

    Chapter 10 Activities

    Rule 37 Rules Applicable to All Activities
    The following Rules apply to all activities carried out anywhere in the world (see Rule 45.4).
    Rule 37.1 Responsibility
    (a) All participants in activities must have received proper training, be suitably equipped and briefed about the
    nature and scope of the activity, be of an appropriate age and be subject to authorised supervision.
    (b) The District Commissioner is responsible for authorising all activities. For special events and activities,
    authorisation may be granted by a County, National or Chief Commissioner.

    Maybe it was in a different bit of POR but....I just find it bizarre that it's such a common thing, that whenever it's "I need to get approval from the DC" it always seems to be for activities away from the hut or locality.
    Ian Wilkins
    Farnham District Explorer Scout Commissioner

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Ok yeah I can't find any evidence of any such historic rule now I look. I think I was conflating it with the old rules for home contacts which said any activity away from your home area required a home contact without defining what they a home area was lol (As such we just defined the whole of Leeds as our home area)
    Last edited by shiftypete; 12-02-2019 at 07:40 PM.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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