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Thread: Is there no shortage of Leaders?

  1. #121
    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    The question should be why was the information not available via the dbs checks which would be legal.

    As for the second question, we will never know because it’s done in the “dark” and no one is going to admit to having done it.

    I suspect that information is held, that perhaps should not be held, and information is leaked tht perhaps should not be leaked in a "behind closed doors, nod and a wink, funny handshake sort of way".

    It is how things happen. rightly or wrongly.

    I'm sure that there are members of the police here, who will almost always know more than they can tell, but who would make a discrete call if they needed to. Of course, they would deny that they would ever do so.
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  2. #122
    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big George View Post
    The question should be why was the information not available via the dbs checks which would be legal.

    As for the second question, we will never know because it’s done in the “dark” and no one is going to admit to having done it.
    There was no such thing as DBS or even CRB checks back when Thomas Hamilton was around

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  3. #123
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    I don't wish to further emboss my cynical demeanor on here, but...

    One of the main functions (the main function?) of the CRB/DBS/PVG thing - plus any system TSA put's in place, is to quantify blame and point the finger. It just makes someone or some process officially responsible when things go tits up.

    I think the reality is, the only way you know if someone is not suitable, is if they've already proven they're not suitable - if that's so, then someone was very nearly or has been harmed.

    Everything else boils down to humanity and what we've been doing for centuries - by which I mean - we gossip and talk about other people. You can try and squeeze that into a structure, but it is what it is.

  4. #124
    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pa_broon74 View Post
    I don't wish to further emboss my cynical demeanor on here, but...

    One of the main functions (the main function?) of the CRB/DBS/PVG thing - plus any system TSA put's in place, is to quantify blame and point the finger. It just makes someone or some process officially responsible when things go tits up.

    I think the reality is, the only way you know if someone is not suitable, is if they've already proven they're not suitable - if that's so, then someone was very nearly or has been harmed.

    Everything else boils down to humanity and what we've been doing for centuries - by which I mean - we gossip and talk about other people. You can try and squeeze that into a structure, but it is what it is.
    CRB/DBS only works if someone has already been caught. It is not preventative; that is the purpose of references and DAAC interviews to try and weed out those who haven't been caught or who are moving to avoid being caught. They cannot prevent inappropriate people from being appointed if all relevant references come back ok and they interview ok - and that is why the yellow card etc exists to reduce opportunities for the wrong people to do bad things.

    The systems, processes and controls exist to protect TSA from accusations of failing to do enough and to make inappropriate people think twice from joining because they exist. They will never and can never stop it entirely.
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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    CRB/DBS only works if someone has already been caught. It is not preventative; that is the purpose of references and DAAC interviews to try and weed out those who haven't been caught or who are moving to avoid being caught. They cannot prevent inappropriate people from being appointed if all relevant references come back ok and they interview ok - and that is why the yellow card etc exists to reduce opportunities for the wrong people to do bad things.

    The systems, processes and controls exist to protect TSA from accusations of failing to do enough and to make inappropriate people think twice from joining because they exist. They will never and can never stop it entirely.
    I know. That's what I said.

    All we're doing here is shoehorning gossip and community intelligence (of a sort) into an official process then putting in some safeguards in case someone slips through.

    Speaking of Thomas Hamilton. I recently joined a gun club.

    Just read that again... Sounds awful in that context really...

    I joined it because I wanted to get a RCO's qualification so I could do air rifle target shooting with the kids. (I'm also a member of the Scottish Target Shooting Association...) I own a couple of air guns, which to all intents and purposes in law are regarded as fire arms. I even have a licence for them. I don't go every week to the shooting club, (some of the conversations they have... Yowsers...) (When you read that back, it also sounds terrible... I just mean about them shooting pigeons, and some of the politics... It's not especially forgiving...)

    But they're decent people, helpful and incredibly keen on their sport. It goes with out saying, I'm **** at it, but I'm in it for the certificate.

    My point is, when it comes to community intelligence, where do you draw the line? It really does get to the point where no one would ever be allowed to work with kids - then you have to think, why are adults already involved so keen to keep new people away - what have they got to hide?

    At some point you have to draw the line. Nothing is 100% fail safe.

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASLChris View Post
    CRB/DBS only works if someone has already been caught. It is not preventative; that is the purpose of references and DAAC interviews to try and weed out those who haven't been caught or who are moving to avoid being caught. They cannot prevent inappropriate people from being appointed if all relevant references come back ok and they interview ok - and that is why the yellow card etc exists to reduce opportunities for the wrong people to do bad things.

    The systems, processes and controls exist to protect TSA from accusations of failing to do enough and to make inappropriate people think twice from joining because they exist. They will never and can never stop it entirely.
    There's a similar chat on 1FB at present. It appears some leaders are using the excuse that DBS and other approaches are never effective against those who have yet to offend to complain that we shouldn't bother. Obviously that's irresponsible as the current safeguarding processes clearly deter some from applying or offending in the first place - DBS checks would have prevented Ian Huntley from taking the school role which he did and may have saved two lives for example.

    It's cynicism which I think is unwarranted to suggest that the only reason for the controls that TSA imposes are to protect the organisation. No one in the movement wants to put children at risk, or worse see actual harm, and I think that's the key driver for what we do. Not that an incident would be bad publicity.

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  9. #127
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    For clarity.

    I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't bother with CRB/PVG/DBS checks - that would be stupid. I'm not even cynical (particularly about why TSA do it), I think though, if we're being objective, one of the other things these check do is hold people accountable. As we've seen in the press recently, it isn't just about adults (convicted or not) who might abuse young people, it's also about people who might excuse or bury that behaviour, and enable it through inaction.

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