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Thread: RIDDOR - another bit of reporting?

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    RIDDOR - another bit of reporting?

    I reported a minor accident to HQ last week and I was suprised to be asked: "do you own your hut and do you employ anyone, e.g. a cleaner?" As this was a new one on me, I polity asked why that would be relevant.

    The response was that if we did we might need to report the incident under the RIDDOR reporting system.

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/

    I have never come across this before and I was certainly not aware that it was a responsibility that we needed to be aware of.

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    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippysurfer View Post
    I have never come across this before.... .
    Employment law? Or just RIDDOR? Sounds like module 1E could be in order.
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Looking at the Health and Safety Executive website it does say that:

    "If you are in control of premises, you must report any work-related deaths, certain injuries to members of the public and self-employed people on your premises, and dangerous occurrences (some near miss incidents) that occur on your premises."

    It does say however that an injury is reportable where someone is at work or "where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers an injury........" so I would think that most Scout activities are OK as usually nobody is at work.

    As far as I remember it only involves fairly serious injuries.

    I suppose RIDDOR would apply if for example a Group employed a cleaner and they fell off a ladder in the Scout hut and fractured their arm.

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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Yup, as soon as you employ someone HSE rules apply to that location. If you don't, you have exactly the same duty of care...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Do you employ a cleaner, or do you contract a cleaning company? (Even if that company is one self-employed person - but beware IR35 if they only clean for you...)

    The difference is very, very important. It's much more likely you do the latter, in which case RIDDOR reporting and other related matters are their responsibility just like they are for the cleaning company I contract to clean my house.

    A Scout Group should always, always choose the latter. The former is a can of worms - you'd be responsible for paying their mandatory pension contributions too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Yup, as soon as you employ someone HSE rules apply to that location. If you don't, you have exactly the same duty of care...
    You have a similar level of duty of care, but the administrative requirements do not apply outside of an organisation that employs people in paid work (and it is the organisation, not the location - so if the District employs a paid warden at their campsite, then it all applies to the District HQ too even if nobody is employed there).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post

    You have a similar level of duty of care, but the administrative requirements do not apply outside of an organisation that employs people in paid work (and it is the organisation, not the location - so if the District employs a paid warden at their campsite, then it all applies to the District HQ too even if nobody is employed there).

    Almost correct, apart from the use of the word similar, which implies that there is a variation.

    I have heard people say, oh, HSE rules do not apply, we are not a workplace. Which isn't quite true. If HSE rules requires X in the workplace, then in a voluntary scenario the same requirements in a duty of care apply. Bot similar, but the same. If there is an accident that results in litigation, we cannot go to the court and say, we are not a workplace so we can apply a lower standard of duty of care.

    RIDDOR may not apply in the volunteer situation - where there are no employees at all - but all else stands.

    This opens a whole can of worms - so a campsite where they have a paid warden, becomes a place of work and HSE rules apply to that site. That site has a pioneering resource... things start to get very silly if the letter of the law is followed...
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
    Do you employ a cleaner, or do you contract a cleaning company? (Even if that company is one self-employed person - but beware IR35 if they only clean for you...)

    The difference is very, very important. It's much more likely you do the latter, in which case RIDDOR reporting and other related matters are their responsibility just like they are for the cleaning company I contract to clean my house.

    A Scout Group should always, always choose the latter. The former is a can of worms - you'd be responsible for paying their mandatory pension contributions too.

    .......
    Oh, if only... Every group I know with a cleaner (admittedly only 3), is informal, cash in hand. As you suggest probably dangerous.

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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Oh, if only... Every group I know with a cleaner (admittedly only 3), is informal, cash in hand. As you suggest probably dangerous.
    Not really as they must be self employed to be paid in cash with no NI and PAYE deductions (hopefully they also clean for other people as well as Neil says)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    This opens a whole can of worms - so a campsite where they have a paid warden, becomes a place of work and HSE rules apply to that site. That site has a pioneering resource... things start to get very silly if the letter of the law is followed...
    It really doesn't open a can of worms at all as you only have to report under RIDDOR if the worker receives a specified injury injured or anyone dies. So if a Scout is injured (non fatally) whilst pioneering then normal Scout reporting is sufficient, only if the employed warden was injured whilst leading pioneering (or doing any other activity at work) would RIDDOR apply.
    http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/reportable-incidents.htm

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post


    It really doesn't open a can of worms at all as you only have to report under RIDDOR if the worker receives a specified injury injured or anyone dies. So if a Scout is injured (non fatally) whilst pioneering then normal Scout reporting is sufficient, only if the employed warden was injured whilst leading pioneering (or doing any other activity at work) would RIDDOR apply.
    http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/reportable-incidents.htm
    I have gone a little off-piste with my thinking here. The Duty of care does apply equally. But in a site employs people, then the site becomes a workplace. HSE rules apply, and it would not be you or I that decided otherwise. It is a can of worms if someone wants to make it a can of worms - ie a lawyer acting on behalf of a "victim".

    (And no, I don't have high vis or hard hats etc for Pioneering...)
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    Quote Originally Posted by RisingStar View Post
    Oh, if only... Every group I know with a cleaner (admittedly only 3), is informal, cash in hand. As you suggest probably dangerous.
    Depending on if they also clean for others and pay their income tax etc themselves, this is likely to be illegal on a number of counts regardless of accident reporting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    (And no, I don't have high vis or hard hats etc for Pioneering...)
    As I've said before Pioneering is one of those activities where if there was a genuinely serious accident it'd get banned. It effectively can't be made safe to H&SAW standards except for very small structures pretty much at ground level, even if you had hard hats, hi-vis and steel toe caps. Fortunately the dangers (getting smacked by a large wooden pole or a knot/rope failure) are pretty obvious so accidents are not actually that common.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    Almost correct, apart from the use of the word similar, which implies that there is a variation.
    There is, well, sort-of.

    I have heard people say, oh, HSE rules do not apply, we are not a workplace. Which isn't quite true. If HSE rules requires X in the workplace, then in a voluntary scenario the same requirements in a duty of care apply. Bot similar, but the same. If there is an accident that results in litigation, we cannot go to the court and say, we are not a workplace so we can apply a lower standard of duty of care.
    There is a big difference in the laws that apply - in particular there is far more criminal law applied to paid work than voluntary work and that creates generally much more formal requirements. This doesn't mean you should be negligent as a volunteer, but it is worth understanding those differences. I assume your camp kitchen is not to the full standards required of a food trailer selling food to the public? Mine isn't either, but nor have I ever given anyone food poisoning on a camp, and nor would I expect to, because I take reasonable care not to do something stupid. As far as catering goes I act as a knowledgeable and reasonable parent would.
    Last edited by Neil Williams; 03-04-2019 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushfella View Post
    I have gone a little off-piste with my thinking here. The Duty of care does apply equally. But in a site employs people, then the site becomes a workplace. HSE rules apply, and it would not be you or I that decided otherwise. It is a can of worms if someone wants to make it a can of worms - ie a lawyer acting on behalf of a "victim".
    I think the wording on the HSE site is pretty clear that RIDDOR only applies in the case of a worker suffering a specified injury or a death of anyone so that is the HSE deciding who it applies to (based on the law) not you or I
    Last edited by shiftypete; 03-04-2019 at 10:12 AM.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark W View Post
    Employment law? Or just RIDDOR? Sounds like module 1E could be in order.
    Ouch. It sounds like you are suggesting that I don't know what I am doing ... (might be reasonable - but feels like a bit of a harsh assumption under the circumstances).

    So maybe I am an idiot and I just forgot the section in 1e about RIDDOR reporting .... (goes off to search on google ... skims through the online training for 1e ... - nope, no mention of it that I can find.)

    I think the only thing I might be guilty of here is not being clairvoyant.

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    GSL/ESL(YL)/TA Mark W's Avatar
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    .... the employment bit, hence the "could".
    If it was easy, it wouldn't be so much fun...
    GSL 1st Aylburton & Lydney, TA, ESL(YL), District Campsite Warden & webmanager .....only 1 hour a week, they said (not pointing out that was what was left)

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiftypete View Post
    I think the wording on the HSE site is pretty clear that RIDDOR only applies in the case of a worker suffering a specified injury or a death of anyone so that is the HSE deciding who it applies to (based on the law) not you or I
    "Non fatal accidents to non-workers (eg members of the public) Accidents to members of the public or others who are not at work must be reported if they result in an injury and the person is taken directly from the scene of the accident to hospital for treatment to that injury. Examinations and diagnostic tests do not constitute ‘treatment’ in such circumstances."

    So, Pete, you made me go and look.

    So RIDDOR can apply IF the site is defined as a workplace, ie, has at least one paid member of staff. At least we agreed, the outcome would be defined by HSE anyway.
    Ewan Scott

    It seems that there are a lot of Nawyecka Comanch around....





    Nawyecka Comanch'": "Means roundabout--man says he's going one way, means to go t'other" Ethan Edwards - The Searchers



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    GSL & AESL shiftypete's Avatar
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    Now you have made me go and look up the actual legislation
    Non-fatal injuries to non-workers
    5. Where any person not at work, as a result of a work-related accident, suffers—

    (a)an injury, and that person is taken from the site of the accident to a hospital for treatment in respect of that injury; or
    (b)a specified injury on hospital premises,
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/5/made

    So an injury to a non worker would only be reportable under RIDDOR if it occurred as a result of a work related accident and a work related accident is defined as
    “work-related accident” means an accident arising out of or in connection with work.
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/2/made

    I don't think simply occuring in a workplace makes something a work related accident, I am fairly certain they are getting at members of the public being injured in the same incident as a worker or due to the work of a worker. If a campsite employs a warden and I trip over a tree root whilst camping at that campsite and break a bone then IMHO that is not reportable under RIDDOR. If the warden mops out the toilets and doesn't place a sign warning me that the floor is wet and slippy and I slip over and break a bone then that probably is reportable under RIDDOR.

    Peter Andrews AESL of Headingley Pirates ESU, Group Scout Leader & Webmaster of Falkoner Scout Group
    www.falkonerscouts.org.uk

    Previous Scouting Roles
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    2017-2018 AGSL

    Wike, North Leeds District Campsite - www.wikecampsite.org.uk
    www.leeds-solar.co.uk
    Please note all views expressed are my own and not those of any organisation I'm associated with

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