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Thread: Would you have done the same?

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    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    Last edited by Kastor; 01-05-2019 at 04:21 PM.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    Escouts - 200 messages after 1st FB....

    Regardless of what I'd do, the feeling there seems evenly split between a view that this acceptable and the half thinking it's totally out of order.

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    Senior Member johnmcmahon's Avatar
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    I personally wouldn't as I know it's against POR.

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    Senior Member big chris's Avatar
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    There's something rum

    Growing veg for a soup kitchen? (In a very well off area)
    Not twigging that delivering tory propaganda might be dodgy
    Everybody quitting
    My allotment costs me 15 quid a year

    There's more to this than it seems, surely?


    (Cue ianw: dont call me Shirley)


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    Senior Member CambridgeSkip's Avatar
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    Assuming all is as it seems then no I would not have got scouts involved at all. I am a political person, I have quite passionate views on many political issues, albeit no loyalty to any given party. However, I value the non party political stance of the scout movement, in its first context across the global both within and beyond WOSM. I am pretty convinced that it is one of the reasons it has spread as widely as it has.

    That said I don’t think I would have resigned. I think “sorry, error of judgement, won’t happen again” is all that is needed here. No one was hurt, no one was at risk, no one lost money. I think it should be possible to move on.

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    Assistant Beaver Leader Keith's Avatar
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    We have a parent in our group who is a Tory Councillor and i'm sure that if she so much as even suggested to anyone in the group that we delivered her leaflets we'd be very quick to decline them no matter what was offered.

    Neither if I decided to stand as a candidate would I even consider asking the group to help deliver them.

    Scouting is non political.

    If a political party doesn't have enough local volunteers to deliver their leaflets then they can quite easily afford to get a professional leaflet distribution company to do it for them. In fact, we once had an MP who was probably the best customer for one of the local delivery firms.
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    Growing veg for a soup kitchen? (In a very well off area)
    Even well off areas can have hidden areas of poverty, hidden homelessness and so on

    As for the incident, the article refered to in the BBC site is this https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...aflets-2811916

    From that we have this statement from The Scout Association
    "In accordance with Scouting’s rules the matter was reported to the Charity Commission by the local volunteer manager. Subsequently the Group Scout Leader of the 1st Marshchapel Scout Group submitted his resignation after taking full responsibility for the incident. Other volunteers have also since resigned. No volunteers have been asked to leave the Scout Movement because of this incident."
    And From Mr Whall
    "As a consequence of this, coupled with a total lack of support for our Leaders from The Scout Association itself and their approach in dealing with the complaint, all the other Leaders have independently decided that they no longer wish to continue in their roles.
    As ever the full story is missing here, although the mass resignation could be down to overly heavy handedness/clumsiness in how it was deal with by those further up the so called command chain somewhere, or it could be something else.

    As for delivering letters/leaflets for a political party, then no, I wouldnt do it, and would encourage others not to do it, as they should have their own activists delivering either as volunteers, or paid staff.
    not as a bribe for a patch of land that can be used in a soup kitchen, and as a result provide good PR for the politician that donated/allowed the allotment..

    It just reads as a mistake on the leaders part that was badly handled.

    As for Scouting and politics, remember this ? "Stop the Rain tax" https://members.scouts.org.uk/newsan...e/31/197/water

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    What skip said.

    Years ago our VS delivered leaflets to raise funds, I can't remember what they were for, but it wasn't a political thing - paving slab cleaning or something. Pretty sure we delivered Yellow Pages too, but gone are those days...

    I think it's a wee bit naive to think you could use Scouts to deliver political leaflets and there not be some consternation. Not a quitting offence though, unless it was some sort of nod and a wink thing between the SL/GSL and candidates. I think that would be a wee bit under-handed.

    That said, if it was our kids, going by jumble sale notices we put through letter boxes, delivery wouldn't be guaranteed. Indeed, many end up stuffed in hedges...


    edit/ Interesting comment from Mr Whall via Richard T there about a lack of support from TSA... It does make one wonder... end edit/
    Last edited by pa_broon74; 01-05-2019 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard T View Post
    Even well off areas can have hidden areas of poverty, hidden homelessness and so on

    As for the incident, the article refered to in the BBC site is this https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...aflets-2811916

    From that we have this statement from The Scout Association


    And From Mr Whall


    As ever the full story is missing here, although the mass resignation could be down to overly heavy handedness/clumsiness in how it was deal with by those further up the so called command chain somewhere, or it could be something else.

    As for delivering letters/leaflets for a political party, then no, I wouldnt do it, and would encourage others not to do it, as they should have their own activists delivering either as volunteers, or paid staff.
    not as a bribe for a patch of land that can be used in a soup kitchen, and as a result provide good PR for the politician that donated/allowed the allotment..

    It just reads as a mistake on the leaders part that was badly handled.

    As for Scouting and politics, remember this ? "Stop the Rain tax" https://members.scouts.org.uk/newsan...e/31/197/water
    Reading the Grimsby Telegraph piece it is hard to work out exactly what has gone on. The following quote hints at some internal community issues that might be the real cause of the resignations:

    "The young people were at the centre of everything we did as a Scout group, and sadly they are the ones who now miss out on a wealth of experiences due to the actions of an individual WITHIN our community."

    There can be few things more divisive than letting politics into a Scout Group. I think the POR rule is very sensible. Any hint of a Leader or anyone else using their access to Scouts as a means of promoting a party political view will trigger a negative reaction from those that oppose that view.

    I am curious what the leaders thought that TSA should do in a situation like this. If I were the GSL, I would expect a stern telephone call from me DC and maybe the CC and someone from the regional team, explaining to me that I should not have done it. The only 'support' I would expect is maybe some advice on how to deal with the press.

    They did the wrong thing, they got caught. Humble pie and apologies are the order of the day. Followed by learning the lesson and getting on with it.

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    Senior Member Kastor's Avatar
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    I think there is a whiff of hypocracry over this.

    We are not political so we shouldn't deliver leaflets on one hand, but we are also not religious but it is ok to do the christmas post which is effectively delivering religious "paperwork".

    I could understand if they had delivered one party's leaflets and refused to do another's but that is not the case (as far as we know).

    As for being non-political that seems to be something TSA turn on or off to suit - Water tax, Pride, Parliament week etc.



    I would suggest that someone has kicked up a big fuss locally and the Leaders have not felt supported by their local District and have all quit. I hope that individual is pleased with themselves for closing a Cub Pack and a Scout Troop and will be volunteering their time to help get them up and running again.
    To get more kids we need more adults - are we getting the message yet?

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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    No, I wouldn't. As someone who has stood for election, I never even CONSIDERED asking Scouts to deliver leaflets. It's just wrong.

    Those prospective councillors are in the wrong as much as the GSL - they should never have considered asking a scout group to deliver election leaflets.


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    Senior Member Bushfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I think there is a whiff of hypocracry over this.

    We are not political so we shouldn't deliver leaflets on one hand, but we are also not religious but it is ok to do the christmas post which is effectively delivering religious "paperwork".

    I could understand if they had delivered one party's leaflets and refused to do another's but that is not the case (as far as we know).

    As for being non-political that seems to be something TSA turn on or off to suit - Water tax, Pride, Parliament week etc.



    I would suggest that someone has kicked up a big fuss locally and the Leaders have not felt supported by their local District and have all quit. I hope that individual is pleased with themselves for closing a Cub Pack and a Scout Troop and will be volunteering their time to help get them up and running again.

    It is our duty as role models to young people to encourage them to think, that could/ should include thinking about, discussing politics, getting involved perhaps, but it is not for us to push any individual candidate or party. We must walk a fine line whilst encouraging our young people to think and decide for themselves.

    There is a clear reason why Scouts should not participate in political meetings whilst in uniform. One might argue that Scouts delivering post for a poitical party is questionable. I think that it is, but my thoughts are beside the point.

    There is much more to this than meets the eye, I am sure. Sometimes, small issues are used as leverage to remove individuals who are a thorn in the side of officialdom... There can often be unintended consequences.
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    The unpaid help ASLChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I think there is a whiff of hypocracry over this.

    We are not political so we shouldn't deliver leaflets on one hand, but we are also not religious but it is ok to do the christmas post which is effectively delivering religious "paperwork".

    I could understand if they had delivered one party's leaflets and refused to do another's but that is not the case (as far as we know).

    As for being non-political that seems to be something TSA turn on or off to suit - Water tax, Pride, Parliament week etc.



    I would suggest that someone has kicked up a big fuss locally and the Leaders have not felt supported by their local District and have all quit. I hope that individual is pleased with themselves for closing a Cub Pack and a Scout Troop and will be volunteering their time to help get them up and running again.
    We shouldn't be delivering leaflets for ANY political party for ANY reason. There is a big difference with Christmas Post as that is personal messages from one person to another, with no implication that the deliverer supports what is said in the letter.

    We should be encouraging young people to be political citizens, without perception of party allegiance - as that is something that voters decide for themselves at each election.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    We are not political so we shouldn't deliver leaflets on one hand, but we are also not religious but it is ok to do the christmas post which is effectively delivering religious "paperwork".
    Oh come on! Christmas stopped being religious at least 50 years ago.
    John Russell
    ex-CSL now ACSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
    Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kastor View Post
    I think there is a whiff of hypocracry over this.

    We are not political so we shouldn't deliver leaflets on one hand, but we are also not religious but it is ok to do the christmas post which is effectively delivering religious "paperwork".

    I could understand if they had delivered one party's leaflets and refused to do another's but that is not the case (as far as we know).

    As for being non-political that seems to be something TSA turn on or off to suit - Water tax, Pride, Parliament week etc.



    I would suggest that someone has kicked up a big fuss locally and the Leaders have not felt supported by their local District and have all quit. I hope that individual is pleased with themselves for closing a Cub Pack and a Scout Troop and will be volunteering their time to help get them up and running again.
    Pride?

    Seriously?

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